Ep. 16 | Hope For Dying Churches | Mark Hallock

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:30:21 Speaker 1 Welcome to the Revitalize My Church podcast, created to help churches navigate, change and reorient to a new and healthy future. Here's the host of the show, Bart Blair. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Revitalize My Church podcast. My name is Bart Blair. I'm the director of Church revitalization for a ministry called Assist Church Expansion, and we started this podcast about eight, nine months ago with the purpose of helping churches navigate change and find their way to a new, fruitful and healthy future. 00:00:30:23 - 00:00:46:02 Speaker 1 Maybe you're a pastor, a church leader, or maybe a member of a church that is going through a season of revitalization, or perhaps needs to go through a season of revitalization. We certainly hope that the content that we're creating for you here is helpful. We release two episodes every month, one on the first of the month and one on the 15th. 00:00:46:04 - 00:01:05:07 Speaker 1 Our episode on the first of the month is typically a conversation between myself and Nathan Bryant, who's the executive director of our ministry, and we share the things that we've been learning, things that we're observing in the space of revitalization, things that we've just simply learned in ministry over the years, we've been serving in the local church, and hopefully those are things that are helpful for you. 00:01:05:12 - 00:01:29:03 Speaker 1 On the 15th of each month, we bring in a guest who just has something new and different, a fresh perspective to add to our conversation. And I'm really excited to share with you the interview that I recently did with Mark Hallock. I discovered Mark simply by downloading a book on Amazon called God's Not Done with Your Church. I didn't know anything about Mark, didn't know anything about the book. 00:01:29:07 - 00:01:47:14 Speaker 1 I was just scrolling through my feed. It was suggested. Needless to say, I read a lot of books on revitalization and replanting. And that is exactly what this book is about. It is about church replanting. And as I read the book, I thought, I've got to get in touch with this guy. So I emailed Mark and asked if he'd be willing to be a guest on our podcast, to which he agreed. 00:01:47:16 - 00:02:12:16 Speaker 1 We recorded this podcast interview and then spent like another hour after we were done recording, just talking about revitalization and replanting. Mark, you're going to hear his story has been a practitioner of replanting. His church is is significantly involved in helping other churches revitalize and replant. And his church actually also has a residency program for pastors who are considering the prospect of becoming revitalization pastors. 00:02:12:18 - 00:02:30:22 Speaker 1 I learned so much from Mark, and I'm so grateful for this new relationship that I have with him. I am confident that now and for years to come, I'm going to be leaning into his wisdom, his experience, and applying a lot of what I'm learning. And I think that you're going to get a lot from this conversation. Make sure you check out some of his other resources. 00:02:30:22 - 00:02:51:02 Speaker 1 He's going to mention some, in the podcast. And, we've got some listed in the show notes, some other books that he's read. Another podcast that he happens to co-host, called Revitalize and Replant with, Mark Clifton. You might be familiar with Mark Clifton. He, penned a book called Reclaiming God's Glory. No. 00:02:51:02 - 00:03:11:01 Speaker 1 Reclaiming glory. Yeah. That's it. Reclaiming glory. It's a book that I actually send a copy to all the guys that I'm coaching in revitalization. And anyway, Mark Hallock and Mark Clifton, co-host of that podcast, and you should definitely check that one out again. Thanks for tuning in. If you haven't subscribed, wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, make sure that you do that so that you don't miss any future episodes. 00:03:11:07 - 00:03:29:07 Speaker 1 And if you're watching on our YouTube channel, please leave us a leave us a comment and a thumbs up. That way more people will find the podcast. Again, thanks for tuning in to the Revitalize My Church podcast. Here's my conversation with Mark Hallock. Well, Mark, thank you so much for joining me today on the Revitalize My Church podcast. 00:03:29:07 - 00:03:31:17 Speaker 1 I'm really excited for this conversation. 00:03:31:19 - 00:03:37:11 Speaker 2 And it's a joy, man, I'm so excited. I've been really excited just to be with you, Bart. Thanks for inviting me on. 00:03:37:15 - 00:03:55:11 Speaker 1 Absolutely. You know, as as I mentioned before, we started recording that I recently read a book that you've written. You've written quite a bit of stuff, and we'll we'll kind of cover that here in just a few minutes. But I just felt a kindred spirit as I was reading the book, and I was like, man, I've got to get this guy on the show. 00:03:55:17 - 00:04:12:12 Speaker 1 And, so really glad to be able to have you here. There are about a million things that we could pick your brain on, because I think you've got a lot of ministry experience in a lot of different things today. We're going to focus primarily our conversation on the book that I read, which is called God's Not Done with Your Church. 00:04:12:14 - 00:04:25:06 Speaker 1 Which is a discussion on replanting. Before we get into that. Lay some groundwork for us here. Give our audience a little bit of your background, your story, how you ended up, where you are doing what you're doing today. Yeah. 00:04:25:06 - 00:04:42:02 Speaker 2 No. It's great. Yeah. So, boy, where do I begin? I mean, I would say this, I grew up in Wyoming, so I'm a Wyoming kid. There aren't many of us, but there's a few of us. So I grew up in Wyoming. The Lord, saved me in high school by his grace. It was in college, really? 00:04:42:02 - 00:05:04:05 Speaker 2 Where I began to feel a call to youth ministry, and and so, anyway, ended up go to school, graduated with a degree in youth ministry, which doesn't open a lot of doors except for youth ministry door. So do you. Do you, foster? That's where I felt called to go. And I love teenagers and wanted to just make disciples and, and teach the Bible and, and see what God did. 00:05:04:05 - 00:05:27:16 Speaker 2 So but one of the things that has always been just the way God's wired me, I've always been an underdog guy. I love underdogs, whether it's sports, I love underdog teams. And so when I was looking at youth ministry positions, I never really felt called to go to a big, established, kind of healthy church, to be honest with you, with a youth group that was booming and just awesome. 00:05:27:18 - 00:05:44:01 Speaker 2 I was always like, man, where is their like where they're like eight kids that are in a little youth room and they're going, man, this is lame. But we love each other. We love Jesus. And could we could we do something with this youth group? And and so that's what I was drawn to, man from, from the very beginning. 00:05:44:01 - 00:06:04:20 Speaker 2 And so I was blessed to serve in two different churches as a youth pastor, once at one church in Loveland, Colorado, right after I graduated, and then the church in Littleton, Colorado for several years. And man, it was such a joy to be part of just seeing what God would do to revitalize. I wouldn't have used a language. 00:06:04:20 - 00:06:26:17 Speaker 2 I didn't even know that language. But basically revitalize, these youth groups, these youth ministries, and to see God breathed new life into them and started to see students come to Jesus. And I loved that. And in fact, some ways I, I wondered if God would have me doing that forever. But it was, it was around 2009. 00:06:26:19 - 00:06:54:20 Speaker 2 I had just begun to really wrestle with here in Denver. So I live in Denver, Colorado. Now, if I didn't say that and was just seeing this movement of of new churches being planted in the Denver metro areas, which praise God, man, we need it. We're a, very lost city. People need Jesus. But as we were seeing churches planted, God began to really break my heart for all the churches that were dying at the same time. 00:06:54:21 - 00:07:18:17 Speaker 2 So in other words, we were seeing basically for every church that was planted, one or 2 or 3 churches closing their doors for good. And and the Lord just kept burdening me with this. You know, Mark, what I've prepared you to do is not just to revitalize youth groups, but to revitalize a dying church. And to be honest, I never thought I'd be the lead, you know, a senior pastor. 00:07:18:17 - 00:07:39:15 Speaker 2 And I just didn't think that was me. And yet God made it really clear that, you know what? What would it look like for my wife and I and our two little kids at the time to go into a little dying church here in Denver and love the people like crazy and preach the word and help them by God's grace, fall in love with their community, and begin to live on mission. 00:07:39:15 - 00:08:02:22 Speaker 2 Like, what would it look like? And so God opened the door for us to to come to the church where I am now. This is July in 2009 of Calvary Baptist Church of England, and at the time Calvary was a church of about 25 to 30 really sweet people who loved Jesus but were really tired and quite frankly, ready to kind of throw in the towel. 00:08:02:22 - 00:08:19:13 Speaker 2 I mean, they were looking at selling the building and they'd run out of money. It was it was a rough situation, but they didn't want to do that. They just didn't know what else to do. And so at that time, you know, I just felt like God was saying, listen, why don't we why don't we come alongside this dying church? 00:08:19:13 - 00:08:39:16 Speaker 2 If they would have me be their pastor and just see what God would do? You know what I mean? And just get back to the very basics of what what are the ingredients of a healthy church? Like I said, dependent prayer, calling out to the Lord. You know, preaching the word, trying to make disciples, raising up leaders and serve the community. 00:08:39:18 - 00:08:57:20 Speaker 2 And by God's grace, he called us. They called us to come. And I remember preaching that first Sunday. I think there were 24 people in the sanctuary. And it's like, here we go, Lord, I hope I don't kill this thing in six months, you know what I mean? But, but God, I just don't believe you're done with this church. 00:08:57:22 - 00:09:16:17 Speaker 2 These are your people. This is your community. There are lost people all over the place. God, we. I can't believe that you're done with this church. And that's where the title for that book actually came from, because that was one of my prayers, is. And what God showed himself to be is he wasn't done with this church, and it's my conviction. 00:09:16:17 - 00:09:41:07 Speaker 2 He's not done with dying churches all over the place, that have a desire to humble themselves before the Lord and to do the things that that he's called us to do in his word, to get healthy again. And so that was 2009, and by God's grace, he, slowly we never saw any kind of explosive growth, one life at a time begin seeing, you know, the battle. 00:09:41:07 - 00:10:12:23 Speaker 2 Never forget the Sunday that the baptistry was, was, filled up for the first time in years. And, you know, the kind of the patriarch of our church guy named Dave Elliott, who's now almost 80, who's been in this church since the beginning in the 50s. And he's just in tears, you know, say, Mark, I never thought I'd see another baptism, you know, and it's like, that's what this is about, you know, coming alongside, seeing the Lord do what only he can do, to bring hope and life to dying churches. 00:10:12:23 - 00:10:34:08 Speaker 2 And so now, 20, 25, part of our journey as a church is as we begin to grow, we never felt called to be some really large church. We we have a high value of shepherding God's people. We want to know people. Well, as pastors, we, we want to see deep community, and we want to be in the neighborhood. 00:10:34:10 - 00:10:57:22 Speaker 2 And so as we began to grow, we began to pray about what would it look like to go help other dying churches and to maybe see this happen again in another community. And then, by God's grace, what if we could see a movement of replanting and and so in 2013, we began what we call the Calvary family of churches. 00:10:57:24 - 00:11:18:04 Speaker 2 And it's a began actually with a church plant. We send about 40 folks of ours into North Littleton, which is about not very far away from our church, into a neighborhood that really needs the gospel. And but what would it look like to be a autonomous congregation since as Baptists, we love autonomy, but we're at our best when we radically collaborate. 00:11:18:04 - 00:11:41:08 Speaker 2 And so we planted that church. And then from there, God began to open doors for us to what we call replant dying churches and then plant other churches. And so today, we're at 35 churches. By God's grace that a half of those have been replanted, 17 churches that would be closed right now. But by God's grace, he's brought them back to life. 00:11:41:08 - 00:12:06:00 Speaker 2 And it's really a testimony, obviously, to the grace and power of God, but also to humble collaboration and kingdom mindedness that I think is absolutely critical in this conversation. A revitalization and replanting. We we're better together. We need one another as churches and as leaders. And so and that's kind of an overview of our story, but we're just so grateful for what the Lord's doing. 00:12:06:00 - 00:12:17:24 Speaker 2 And and you and I, Bart, we share the same heart, man. I just I love declining and struggling churches, and I love to see Jesus do what only he can do. And in bringing them back to life for his glory. 00:12:18:01 - 00:12:41:18 Speaker 1 Yeah, there's there's no doubt that, number one, that's phenomenal story. Thank you for sharing that. And I you know what? We're not going to get into the specifics of your last 15 years. So much on this particular podcast episode. We might do that on another episode. You guys like hanging out with me enough because I want I want to actually hear more about the journey, but I want to get into some of the more, tactical things that you've written about in the book. 00:12:41:18 - 00:13:09:08 Speaker 1 Now, the reality is, and I really don't want to downplay this, you know, what we're doing in the in terms of church revitalization and church replanting is, is, is is a spiritual journey, right? It is the Holy Spirit that, you know, breathes a new life into churches. However, there are some practical, tactical, strategic things that we can and should be doing to give ourselves the best chance for, for a fruitful future that that's the goal. 00:13:09:12 - 00:13:29:14 Speaker 1 And so I want to I want to talk about a few things and get you to maybe start with some definitions. You know, this podcast is called Revitalize My Church. You know, when you've used the term, which actually, if I'm to be honest with you, you've used the term dying churches several times, and I am always so careful and so cautious. 00:13:29:15 - 00:13:30:08 Speaker 2 I know. Right? 00:13:30:08 - 00:13:54:05 Speaker 1 You use that word because I don't want to offend people. Yet at the same time, I've had this conversation with my colleagues recently. I'm like, you know, if I go to the doctor and I'm dying and the doctor doesn't tell me I'm ready, I'm going to be mad at my doctor. You know, as much as it hurts to tell someone that their church is actually going to die if there isn't intervention, you know, that's that's a tough conversation to have. 00:13:54:06 - 00:13:55:15 Speaker 2 Yes, it is, let's. 00:13:55:17 - 00:14:04:05 Speaker 1 Call it what it is. But can you define for me, or do you define the difference between revitalization and replanting? 00:14:04:07 - 00:14:22:06 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, that's really great. And you're right, by the way. It's true. I mean, dying, you know, we use different language declining, struggling. But at the end of the day, we will get to this probably in a few minutes. There has to be, you know, the number one job of a leader is to name reality, right? And so it doesn't do anybody any good. 00:14:22:06 - 00:14:38:22 Speaker 2 If I go to the doctor and I've got a huge lump on my back and the doc says is thinking, man, that could be a serious tumor. But you know what? Let's just put a Band-Aid on it and see what happens. Put some Neosporin on there and hopefully this sucker will disappear. Listen, that's not doing anybody any good. 00:14:38:22 - 00:15:11:01 Speaker 2 So when we talk about the revitalization and replanting, here's the distinction. So and hopefully this will make sense I would say revitalization is sort of an overarching umbrella. That is it has a has several different strategies potentially under it to help declining churches get back to health. And so that's how I would define revitalization is is helping a declining or plateaued church move toward life vibrancy, and fresh vision. 00:15:11:03 - 00:15:45:06 Speaker 2 And so in revitalization, though, if you want to talk about clear distinctions in a traditional revitalization, effort is basically this you are going into a church if you're a pastor and you are trying to help lead this church with where it's at, the people that are there, the bylaws that are in place, everything about it, nothing significantly changes in terms of the structure outwardly, but you're trying to lead that the change within the structure and the people that are there, does that make sense? 00:15:45:06 - 00:16:09:04 Speaker 2 Yes. Versus replanting, I would say is is an intentional strategy under revitalization that is, is for a period of time. It's a bit more radical, but a replant would be when a church is at a point where they recognize we are in big trouble, and if something doesn't like radical doesn't change, we we're not going to survive. 00:16:09:04 - 00:16:49:22 Speaker 2 And so replanting would be coming alongside the congregation, building off the past with the people who were there. Right. And that's really important. That's my heart for sure. And our heart in the Calvary family of churches, this is not a takeover. We're not making you a campus. We want to come alongside you and together recognize, hey, look, we've got to do some radical things, to basically relaunch this church as a new work base, you know, building off the past, but heading into a new future and, and kind of some of the teeth in that is we would say they're need they need a vote on, we're good Baptists. 00:16:49:23 - 00:17:13:15 Speaker 2 We vote on everything. But that church needs to approve and vote on a new set of bylaws. For instance, one of the biggest changes. Nobody gets pumped about bylaws. But the reality is, bylaws are the rules to the game. And so if you're trying to lead change with bylaws that actually hinder and conflict with the mission moving forward, it can actually it will not only stifle movement, it'll quench the spirit. 00:17:13:15 - 00:17:34:07 Speaker 2 And it could cause a lot of frustration, especially if you have leaders in a in a declining church that are not humble, leaders that want power, control, whatever it might be. So replanting again, I feel like and what we've seen, is harder on the front end in some ways because there's more of a, of a letting go. 00:17:34:07 - 00:18:01:03 Speaker 2 There's more of I'm trusting, ascending church is how we would say it to come alongside us and together moving to the future. There's a little more of a cost on the front end, but there's far more fruit and effectiveness over the next 5 to 10 years. That's what we've seen over and over again versus in a traditional revitalization, you're basically trying to to lead this thing in a way, that doesn't make any radical change. 00:18:01:07 - 00:18:20:11 Speaker 2 Right? So this is where on the front end it doesn't feel as hard. But that's because you're not actually changing anything. You know, we I always think of it like this. In Colorado, we have the Rockies, Colorado Rockies baseball team. Okay, who are always one of the worst teams in baseball every every year. You know, just no, no never fails. 00:18:20:13 - 00:18:42:04 Speaker 2 But in revitalization, it's kind of like, hey, Bart, you have been hired as the manager of the Rockies, and you can come in and, man, we want to we've got to take this division. And by the way, you're going to the exact same roster from last year. The same amount of money, the same, resources, everything. Nothing's going to change at all. 00:18:42:06 - 00:19:07:23 Speaker 2 But you've got to move from eighth place to first. Now, can it happen? Yeah, it can, but, dude, you gotta have some leadership chops. First of all, that are off the charts people skills. There's got to be so many unique pieces to really see that thing turn around. Does that make sense? Yes. Most likely you may move if you're really gifted from eighth place to seventh place or sixth place, which isn't bad, but you're not managing to be seventh place. 00:19:07:23 - 00:19:24:15 Speaker 2 You want to. You want to be first place. So what I was is replanting in using that analogy is, hey, we got we're going to bring in a new coach and we've got, we've got a new payroll, we've got some new players, we've got some new stuff alongside our existing players, and we're ready to take this division this year. 00:19:24:15 - 00:19:26:19 Speaker 2 We've made some real changes. Does that make sense? Yeah. 00:19:26:19 - 00:19:29:24 Speaker 1 Yeah I love that. Yeah I love that. 00:19:30:01 - 00:19:31:07 Speaker 2 Is that helpful that that's. 00:19:31:10 - 00:19:49:23 Speaker 1 Yeah yeah it is. Now let me let me ask you another question. If I, if I'm sitting in a church, I'm a elder or a board member or a long time member who realizes things are not going well, we we don't know how much longer we got. Maybe we got a lot of money in the bank and we can keep the doors open for a long time. 00:19:49:23 - 00:20:05:23 Speaker 1 But we recognize that from a fruitfulness standpoint, the church has, as has it seems like best days are behind us. Right? How do I know if my church is better suited for a season of revitalization versus a season for replanting? 00:20:06:00 - 00:20:27:01 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's a great question. What I would say is we always assess what we call the desperation level, the desperation level of a church, meaning, couple things. So as we assess the church's readiness. Right. And that's really what you're doing, you're helping a church assess itself. Partly. What you've got to see is you want to look at some of the hard data. 00:20:27:03 - 00:20:49:14 Speaker 2 How many folks are coming, how many people were here five years ago? What's the budget like? What kind of money's coming in? What are the pressure points? Do you owe money on the building? Is it paid off? So there's a lot of different factors of data that are going to kind of say, to help you in a sense diagnose us and say, look, you think you have a cold, but you actually have cancer. 00:20:49:20 - 00:21:11:17 Speaker 2 You know, I mean, or boy, you guys have been thinking you have cancer, but you actually have a cold. Like there's actually some some real hope here and some really good signs. If some of these things could shift. But I think it's it's helping a church really recognize the reality of where we are. If things don't change, how much longer do we have? 00:21:11:19 - 00:21:34:22 Speaker 2 Of course, what we always want to say is, look, if you're blessed with 100, 100,000 bucks in the bank, still, boy, instead of letting that drain to, you know, and lose all the money, you could invest that and we could turn this thing around. It's easier to turn this thing around with 30 or 40 people in $100,000 than it is five people and $5,000, right? 00:21:35:01 - 00:22:00:20 Speaker 2 Because that's the trajectory of many churches. And so that then the question is, are they willing to see that and go, you know what? You're totally right. And, you know, there's six things real quick, but I don't I won't go along on this, but there's kind of six. When we assess the church's readiness to be replanted or revitalized, we always say this that the remaining leaders and influencers of that declining church must share six things. 00:22:00:20 - 00:22:23:13 Speaker 2 Okay. Number one, recognition of reality. In other words, we understand the real change is needed and it's needed right now. Right. So recognition of reality. Number two, hearts that are humble and humility is so huge in this. But what that says, here's what that says. We know that this is the Lord's church. It's not our church. This is not my church. 00:22:23:15 - 00:22:43:21 Speaker 2 In fact, I'm and so and so that's really important to understand. Number three is there's got to be a commitment to the Bible. And what I mean is this, is there truly a belief and practice that the Word of God is our authority and we joyfully submit to it? Because here's what we know. Somebody or something has authority in every church. 00:22:43:23 - 00:23:04:12 Speaker 2 And what we've seen is there's a lot of churches on paper that would say the Word of God is our authority. And yet practically, the scriptures really aren't, someone else is or a committee is or whatever. And so authority is really an important one. Number four is, is there a desire to reach the community with the gospel? 00:23:04:14 - 00:23:23:19 Speaker 2 Well, we've seen many times in a lot of times in declining and dying churches over the years. What's happened is as the community has changed, instead of hearts breaking for the community and the lost in the community, it's almost as if the community has become the enemy. Does that make sense? Yes. So they're the problem. They're the problem. 00:23:23:19 - 00:23:44:10 Speaker 2 These people, these new people come. They're the problem. As long as that's the attitude, you're never going to see your church revitalized. They are not the problem. They're the mission field. You know what I mean? They're the mission field. And so is there an attitude that says we are eager to reach our community because this is the mission field that God has given us, and just in his sovereignty, he's placed us here. 00:23:44:12 - 00:24:12:00 Speaker 2 And then two more. Number five, is there a willingness to do whatever it takes? And here's what I mean by that. Because we're desperate to see God moves in our church, we're ready to put our non-essential preferences to the side. And that can be a hard conversation because we all have preferences, right? But for the sake of the gospel, are we willing to put aside our non-essential preferences in order to reach some people that we're not reaching with the gospel? 00:24:12:02 - 00:24:33:01 Speaker 2 And then the sixth thing that I always say is there has to be a belief that has to be faith, that God can revitalize dying and struggling churches. Like, do we actually have faith that God isn't done with our church? Because we don't believe that? Then what's the point? You know, because this is a supernatural thing. We need God to move in power. 00:24:33:03 - 00:24:45:15 Speaker 2 But we also have to believe this to ten, and he will. And we're willing to do what it takes. So not to go through all this, but those are six things that I find can are helpful in assessing the readiness of a church, something. 00:24:45:21 - 00:25:03:22 Speaker 1 That's very good. And it actually you kind of jumped ahead and in that answered some follow up questions that I had planned to ask. So let me, let me, let me go here. And I and I don't want to offend anyone who who's listening. But sometimes you might have to be offended if you're not being offended. 00:25:03:24 - 00:25:23:24 Speaker 1 You know, maybe you need a little more humility. That's so you. You write a lot about humility. Yeah. You know, maybe that is the crux of what I'm going to get at here, which is I go to a church, and a lot of times they say all the right things, right. We really do want to reach lots of people. 00:25:23:24 - 00:25:46:18 Speaker 1 We really do want to see our community, be impacted for Jesus. And we believe that our church can and should be a part of that. And it all sounds really good. Yeah. Until the rubber hits the road and all of a sudden, the changes of the non-essentials, the grip gets real tight and all of a sudden we we we realize we did wrong. 00:25:46:20 - 00:26:14:19 Speaker 1 We don't really want to change. We really just want the community to change. We we we want them to come, but we're not willing to change the things that we need to change in order to engage with the community at the level we need to. When you're going through that assessment process and asking the hard questions of the church, how do you read through those surface level answers that say, yes, we we we believe that God can revive our church, and yes, we believe that we are called to reach our community. 00:26:14:19 - 00:26:20:23 Speaker 1 And yes, we're willing to make changes. How do you discern the difference between the right answers and the real answers? 00:26:21:03 - 00:26:44:14 Speaker 2 Well, that's a great question. And I think that's why, you know, when you're assessing a church, it's obviously not just one meeting. It's going to be several conversations and meetings and the other thing. But I'm always my posture is always this, you know, you can't you can't force nor should you ever force any church to be revitalized or replanted. 00:26:44:16 - 00:27:06:11 Speaker 2 It is that churches decision. Do they want, you know, do they want to do this? This is their local church. I want to honor that. This is your, you know, and so I can make the case and say, here's all the reasons why from Scripture and otherwise, not only do I think God is not down with your church, but he wants to see this church thriving again and making disciples. 00:27:06:13 - 00:27:25:08 Speaker 2 But at the end of the day, I'm not going to twist anybody's arm or try to, you know, to do this. There is cost involved, there's cost involved. But but what what I have to believe is for for those who are regenerate and, and the Holy Spirit is in them. They want what God wants. Yeah. Then they know the truth. 00:27:25:08 - 00:27:53:04 Speaker 2 And so part of this is sometimes you've got to put on a pastoral hat and help people and, and a lot of times what we found is, you know, it isn't always kind of a sinful digging my feet in. And, you know, I don't want to change, but rather there's a fear. You know, one of the things that in our culture that I've and I've learned this now over the last several years working with older, struggling congregations, a lot of older folks, and they they're losing everything. 00:27:53:04 - 00:28:16:04 Speaker 2 They've they've lost a spouse. We live in a culture that does not value, let alone honor, our elderly, we, we live in a culture where a lot of times we get older, you lose. You're not only physically losing your strength. You're losing positions of influence. You're losing a lot of things. The one thing I am not going to lose is my church. 00:28:16:09 - 00:28:33:04 Speaker 2 You know, I'm saying, yeah, I'm not going to lose my church. And that's the one thing. And so I think partly too, is how we approach folks in a pastoral manner to say, oh, I want to honor that. You know, in no way do I want to say that's that doesn't matter. It does. 00:28:33:04 - 00:28:48:11 Speaker 1 Matter. Yeah. I don't remember who I heard say this. I've repeated it a lot. And you're you're sort of hitting the hammer on the same nail, which is people really don't. People don't fear change. What they fear is loss, right? That's right. 00:28:48:12 - 00:28:49:01 Speaker 2 That's exactly. 00:28:49:01 - 00:29:07:12 Speaker 1 You can use the terminology change, change, change in people like sure I'm good with change. But when you begin to take something that is a value to them, that's when you start to feel the resistance. And you're right. You know, the the baby boomer generation, everything in their life is changing and it's changing fast. I use this example a lot. 00:29:07:12 - 00:29:36:23 Speaker 1 My my stepfather, for his entire life, whenever he needed to deal with the car insurance company or the homeowner's insurance, he would drive down to the square and walk into the insurance agents office and sit across a desk and have that conversation. And a couple of years ago, his insurance company closed down the local office, and now he's got to use a computer and an app to deal with his insurance company and a near 80 year old that's just like, that's that's the worst possible thing. 00:29:37:00 - 00:29:57:22 Speaker 1 That's right. You're right. I go to church, I park in the same space, you sit in the same pew, I see the same people, sing the same song, smell the same smells, eat the same meals at the potluck. You know, translation hasn't changed. And it's the last vestige I have of everything that is a value to me. And it is value. 00:29:57:22 - 00:30:18:01 Speaker 1 It is. It's my connection to God, it's connection to my spiritual community. And that, you know, that little bit of change which we a lot of times, especially younger leaders and those that are like really driven, those high type of personalities, I don't see what the big deal is about taking the pews out of the the sanctuary and putting in comfortable theater seats. 00:30:18:03 - 00:30:22:06 Speaker 1 Well, there's somebody's name is, That's right. It's a big deal. It is a. 00:30:22:08 - 00:30:44:18 Speaker 2 That's, that's that's really well said. I mean, I think, I mean, you nailed it. I think this is why the question of when you're asked, when you're trying to assess this is where asking good questions and trying to get to the heart of the issue of people is really important to be a good listener. I also think practically, I think you can in some ways assess the readiness of a church in terms of what have they been doing? 00:30:44:18 - 00:31:03:06 Speaker 2 Like are there you might be surprised, like there might be some things that some innovative things they've tried in the last 3 or 4 years. They might be more open to change than you realize. I think the other the last thing I'll just say on this is, is we want to make sure that that church, they know when we talk about change because that can be scary when we say that, what do we mean? 00:31:03:06 - 00:31:23:17 Speaker 2 And what what do we not mean? And I always want to emphasize what we don't mean is we're not interested in changing the most important things the gospel, the word of God, who this church is theologically, whatever your stream is, there are there are this is who we are. We do not want to compromise in any way who we are. 00:31:23:19 - 00:31:59:23 Speaker 2 What we're really talking about is, the implications of being who we are for the sake of reaching those. We're not reaching with the good news that we have found in Christ. And so I think that's another important thing. And sadly, there's a lot of young leaders who do come in and, I don't know, full time to talk about this today and unwisely, unwisely lead or attempt to lead revitalization because they're changing either the wrong things or they're changing things in the at the wrong time and in the wrong way, all the while not focusing on the main things, which is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. 00:32:00:00 - 00:32:18:11 Speaker 2 This is Jesus's church. We love the Lord. We love one another. We love, you know, if if we're sacrificing any of that, who cares what qualities you have to turn a church around? The Lord is not honored and the and his sheep will be hurt. So how we lead revitalization is really, really important. 00:32:18:13 - 00:32:43:12 Speaker 1 Let me let me make an assertion here. When we're talking about a replant scenario and because I've read your book, I have a little bit more insight in probably the details of the process than our listeners will. And I get you to unpack that a little bit. I'm assuming that one of the in the assessment process, one sign of readiness in a replant scenario is I'm handing you the keys, I'm going to give you the keys to the building and say it's yours. 00:32:43:17 - 00:33:16:09 Speaker 1 Do with it what you think the Lord is leading you to do with it. You place a really strong emphasis in the replant process, about how basically I'm having partnerships between a healthy church and a church that needs to be replanted. Can you walk us through what the process or that partnership ordinarily looks like? I know every scenario is probably going to have some some variation to it, but what are some of the key things that you're looking for when you're partnering churches together, and how does that process play itself out? 00:33:16:11 - 00:33:39:07 Speaker 2 Yeah, no, that's a great question. And it it really depends on the situation. And that's why we're really big on for instance, and I just think this is true for any and every church is partnership intentional partnership with another church is is vital I think not only for, a kingdom vision that we're in this together, but also for your people. 00:33:39:09 - 00:33:57:01 Speaker 2 I don't think it's ever healthy when our eyes are only on our church all the time. How are we looking outward to, to pray for? So, for instance, we could talk about levels of partnership at the most basic level is, hey, is there a declining church in your area that you could form a prayer partnership with? 00:33:57:03 - 00:34:18:04 Speaker 2 And you literally as a pastor or leader, you go to their pastors and leaders and say, hey, we passed you all the time, and we just want to be more intentional to pray for you and to lift you up, before the Lord and, and build in. And we would we would covet your prayers for us and wondering if we could form an intentional prayer partnership that's like the lowest level of commitment. 00:34:18:05 - 00:34:40:16 Speaker 2 And yet, it might be the most powerful partnership, that we could we could pursue. But many times, starting there leads to a deeper level of partnership, which we've seen that many times, a prayer partnership that leads to, hey, what? What if we do something together? What if we do? What if we did, VBS together? 00:34:40:16 - 00:35:09:19 Speaker 2 We know you all. You may have two kids, and it's really hard to pull, you know, a declining church. It's really hard to pull that off. But, boy, we sure love to do it with you. And, and just partner together or. Or maybe it's. Hey, what would happen if on Easter we worship together this year, or we did a worship night or whatever it might be, but you're doing something together, moving from praying for one another to being together, either for fellowship or worship or even mission. 00:35:09:21 - 00:35:27:19 Speaker 2 And what begins to happen there is you start to fall in love with each other. That's what happens. You start going, oh my gosh, there's other Christians in this area. And and we sure love this church and we're praying for them. And we did this really great thing together. We had this barbecue outreach and, you know, for the 4th of July or whatever it might be. 00:35:27:21 - 00:35:48:21 Speaker 2 And I think that would be a next layer of partnership. Right. What's happening? You're starting to build build trust. They might even be then like one of the things we'll do is, is we begin to see this church and go, man, they are really struggling. What have we said? Three families to be part of your church for the next six months just to serve, to love you? 00:35:48:23 - 00:36:06:08 Speaker 2 You don't have a worship leader. We've got a guy who would love to lead worship for you over the next three months. And and just as a way to to serve you. And because we're in this together. And what happens? You begin to fall in love with each other even more. And so that would be a deeper level of partnership then. 00:36:06:08 - 00:36:30:21 Speaker 2 May lead then to a conversation going, but what if we merged? What if the what if we came together and did something together? To help this church become healthy? We sure have loved having these young families with us and a little kids around. And but, you know, if they do it right with a humble heart, it's saying, hey, what if we did this on a more permanent basis and started dreaming about how we could, you know, take the next step? 00:36:30:21 - 00:36:55:12 Speaker 2 And so many times that could lead to a merger or a replant situation or something else. You get the idea. But we being you got to start somewhere. Replanting is the highest level of partnership, okay? It involves the greatest sacrifice. There's no doubt. And that's why a lot of times these are churches, that are been they are they are totally desperate. 00:36:55:14 - 00:37:17:11 Speaker 2 They're literally going to sell their building and close the doors. And we're coming in saying, hey, God's not done. We can let's do this together. We've got the manpower. We can help. Whatever. A lot of churches, though, it takes a long time to get to that point of desperation. And so what can we do, just as brothers and sisters of the Lord, to begin forming partnerships with other churches? 00:37:17:13 - 00:37:37:11 Speaker 2 Now, what's cool is it might be this. So it might be. Hey, I'm friends with this pastor over here. This pastor here. What if the three of us began to take that pastor of that church? That's down to 15 people. What have we just once a month invited him out to breakfast with us and just be his friend, start praying for him, encouraging him because he doesn't have anybody in his life. 00:37:37:13 - 00:38:02:05 Speaker 2 And to see where that simple act of love and connection can begin to build trust in it. No longer are you the enemy, right? Because we sadly, and I hear this all the time when declining churches hear the word partnership. They they basically that's can scare the partnership with healthy churches. They're going to crush. They're going to want our building, they're going to want, you know, whatever. 00:38:02:07 - 00:38:25:23 Speaker 2 And I think we have to lead with love and humility and grace to change that narrative and say, literally, brother, we just want to love you. We just want to serve you however we can to partner together. However we can. But it takes intentionality. It's not enough to talk about partnership. You've got to actually go by the church and knock on the door and give the guy a hug and hear his story and begin pursue suing that relationship. 00:38:26:00 - 00:38:43:00 Speaker 1 When it comes to those types of partnerships. Mark, what role do you see a third party coach consultant advocate playing in helping facilitate those types of relationships or partnerships? Yeah. 00:38:43:02 - 00:39:05:17 Speaker 2 I think it's huge. You know, so we're part of the Southern Baptist Convention, and we always say the most important individuals in the replanting and revitalization movement in our denomination are what we call area missionaries, but it's essentially our associational leaders. Every denomination has different names or whatever. And why is that? Because of what you just said. 00:39:05:19 - 00:39:33:21 Speaker 2 They often have the trust with churches on the ground. If they're doing their job well, they're encouragers. They care about every church, and they oftentimes can be kind of the, they create the marriage or at least the dating opportunity between a couple churches that they would say, hey, I think the, the, the chemistry would work here between this pastor and this pastor or these churches have a lot in common or whatever it might be, but you're kind of a matchmaker in that. 00:39:33:21 - 00:39:57:11 Speaker 2 And coming to the table and bringing those leaders together, whether they're pastors or pastors and elders or whoever it might be, and casting that compelling vision to say, guys, I'm just really excited about what could happen here between your churches, partnering together and working together to do things for the sake of the kingdom? I think it'd be it'd be great for both churches. 00:39:57:13 - 00:40:16:17 Speaker 2 And so I think that's partly, I think a third party oftentimes is very helpful. It can be a little intimidating, quite frankly, if you're, say, you're a pastor and you've got a vision, to come alongside and help this declining church, and you have no relationship with them, you know, and they're going, who are you, pal? And I don't know you. 00:40:16:17 - 00:40:41:22 Speaker 2 What do you want from me? Whereas the third party is the one who can take the hand of this, this church, in this church and bring them together and help launch them and potentially into a partnership. I think it's massively important. And our whole strategy on a denominational level in the Southern Baptist Convention is, is very much depend in many ways on those area missionaries helping to form those partnership relationships. 00:40:41:22 - 00:40:43:04 Speaker 2 So that's a great question. 00:40:43:04 - 00:41:04:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, I appreciate you emphasizing that. You know, in our small tribe of churches, our churches are all, we have what we call a commitment to common identity. And one of the three pillars that we're committed to is biblical relationships. Yes. And we recognize that really, because we're not a denomination, we're a fellowship. Without a relationship, we have nothing. 00:41:04:14 - 00:41:19:11 Speaker 1 If we don't invest in the relationships, we're merely quote unquote, independent churches. And as my friend Scott Feather said a couple of years ago at one of our national conferences, is that there's nowhere in Scripture that says we are to be independent. We are to be interdependent. 00:41:19:15 - 00:41:20:12 Speaker 2 I love that word. 00:41:20:13 - 00:41:31:22 Speaker 1 That's right. And, and we just need to we need to learn to grow and leverage that interdependency. Amen. We can all be healthier, more vibrant churches, and we're better together. 00:41:31:24 - 00:41:52:01 Speaker 2 Listen, brother. I mean, the Baptist mean we're the same way. I mean, Baptist faith. We love to talk about autonomy all day long. And the problem is, I can go. I can be real ugly, and it can be very self-centered. But when you have autonomous churches that radically collaborate, look out, look out. I mean, the spirit moves empower, but that's a good word. 00:41:52:01 - 00:41:58:15 Speaker 2 Interdependence is a great word, and that's what we're going for. That's what we pray will see happen between our churches. 00:41:58:15 - 00:42:19:12 Speaker 1 So. Yeah. Hey, Mark, we've we've kind of come to the end of our recording time together. I could actually sit with you probably all day and have conversations about this. To those that are listening to this podcast who are maybe in a church that's struggling, a church is in decline, a church that may be on the cusp of dying, whether that's a pastor or an elder or just a lay leader of some sort. 00:42:19:14 - 00:42:28:00 Speaker 1 It's a difficult season of ministry. What would you say to encourage those folks as they consider a new way forward? 00:42:28:02 - 00:42:49:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's really good. I mean, I would say this I mean, I think partly I would encourage and say, remember who God is. Remember, this is the Lord's church. He loves your church. He loves your people. He loves you. And and he can be trusted even in this, these times, the field can feel really hopeless. Boy, God, what are we going to. 00:42:49:14 - 00:43:10:11 Speaker 2 What do we do here? So I would say, remember, God, that he's with you. You're not alone in this. I think also getting back to as much as you can, depending on the influence you have, I would always say try to get back to some of the basics. And the most basic thing that you can do is get back to, intentional dependent prayer. 00:43:10:13 - 00:43:25:17 Speaker 2 And, you know, I don't say that, you know, somebody will pray. We got to pray. And I would say, yeah, pray. You need God to do what only God can do. And so maybe it's saying, hey, look, once a week we're going to just join in our worship area. And for half an hour we're just going to pray. 00:43:25:19 - 00:43:53:08 Speaker 2 We're just going to seek the Lord in prayer, and pray for our church and pray for the future and pray for our community. What what I really believe is this until your hearts break, until the Lord breaks your heart for the lost, for future generations. Whatever it might be, until God aligns your heart with his in a humble way, use a church just won't do what it needs to be done to. 00:43:53:08 - 00:44:17:08 Speaker 2 To trust him and to to reach the people that you're not reaching with the gospel, both those outside the church. And I will tell you for, for, for the next generations. I mean, I, I think about this, I think about my grandkids and great grandkids. And don't you want to see your church flourishing? By God's grace, people coming to faith, disciples being made, the community being transformed because of the impact of this church. 00:44:17:10 - 00:44:36:09 Speaker 2 That should be a vision that causes us to go, man, I only have a few years left. I want to do whatever I can to see that vision become a reality. And I want to help others get that vision too. And so I would say play whatever part you can in prayer and encouragement and casting vision. I will just say not. 00:44:36:09 - 00:45:05:23 Speaker 2 I wasn't planning on plugging this, but the book of art that you mentioned. God's not done with your church. I literally wrote that book for you, for that audience. Those who are, key leaders or influencers, in a declining church that are going, what can we do? And I hope that maybe that little book, it's short, it's not a long book, but can bring you encouragement and to practical steps, as you consider, a couple different paths forward for your church. 00:45:06:00 - 00:45:14:09 Speaker 2 So that would be my encouragement there. Bart, and there is hope. There is hope. The Lord can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. 00:45:14:09 - 00:45:17:00 Speaker 1 Our God is in the business of bringing dead things back to life. 00:45:17:01 - 00:45:18:18 Speaker 2 Amen, Amen. 00:45:18:20 - 00:45:35:22 Speaker 1 So, hey, Mark, this has been awesome. I've loved the conversation. We're going to link to the book and to some other stuff. In our show notes, you have a blog or website, that you have some other content, any other things that we need to know or any other places that we can find you online? 00:45:35:24 - 00:45:57:06 Speaker 2 You know, it's great. I, I do, co-host actually, a podcast called Revitalize and Replant, which is, with my good buddy Mark Clifton, who's head of replant for the Southern Baptist. But we do two episodes a week, and that whole the whole podcast is designed to encourage and bring practical nuts and bolts to churches that are struggling. 00:45:57:12 - 00:46:02:05 Speaker 2 And so that might be something to check out as, just an encouragement for you on your journey. 00:46:02:07 - 00:46:22:10 Speaker 1 Absolutely. I will link to that in the show notes as well. Hey, for those of you who have made it all the way to the end of this particular podcast episode, congratulations. You've committed quite a bit of time. And we appreciate that. And pray that the Lord will well bless you in that. Just a reminder that if you haven't subscribed wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, be sure that you do that so that you don't miss any future episodes. 00:46:22:12 - 00:46:35:16 Speaker 1 And if you wouldn't mind, leave us a rating or a review. Wherever you listen, it helps feed the algorithm of the interwebs and more people can find the podcast. So again, Mark, thanks so much for being a guest on the show. Thank you. Thank you.