Ep. 041 | Part 2 - 6 Keys to Managing Conflict in a Church Revitalization

Right. Okay, here we go in 3, 2. Welcome to episode 41 of the Revitalize My Church podcast. My name is Bart Blair. I am the director of church revitalization for a ministry called Assist Church Expansion. And I am joined, well, I would say, as always, but it's really only every other episode. I am joined, as always on every other episode by Nathan Bryant, the executive director of Assist Church Expansion. Hello, Nathan. Hey, Bart. You can tell he's a man of many words. His greetings are always pretty much the same. Hi. Hey, Bart. Hello. It's good to see you. Glad to be on this episode with you, Nathan. We are picking up from our previous episode which was recorded, released a month ago. We've been producing this podcast for. We're coming up on two years pretty soon. And our goal with this podcast is to help churches navigate change and reorient to a new and healthy future. We walk alongside churches that are part of our family of churches, our fellowship through season of revitalization, renewal, replanting, restarting. And you know, we recognize that it's hard work. It is hard work to be a leader in a local church who is trying to lead the church through some sort of change. We talked last time we were together about navigating conflict in the church. In fact, the episode that we recorded, first episode in this two part series is called six Keys to Managing Conflict in a Church Revitalization. That was part one of one. This is going to be part two of two. Sorry, it was part one of two. This is part two of two. This will be. We'll wrap this up. And we kind of went through sort of just big picture of conflict. And we're set to have a subsequent conversation based on not necessarily conflict, but pushback or resistance. Resistance, I guess is the right word because we clarified that the conflict and resistance in a church revitalization are not necessarily the same. You want to kind of just recap what you kind of explained about that and the difference between those coming from a different place. Like there's always conflict in a church because you're dealing with people. When there's people, there's, there's conflict. That was of course, what our first point was. Yeah, this is normal, so we need to expect it. But resistance is, is also normal when you're dealing with a people, you're trying to change to a different way or a different method. And, and so it's part of the responsibility of us as a leader to generally anticipate that and work to make sure that we're helping people navigate that change together in a positive way. And so it's not the same. It does have conflict elements to it for sure. Absolutely. Especially if we don't deal with it properly. But it's a stated reality when you're bringing change. And so we have to address that kind of more of a specific issue to hopefully eliminate potential conflict that we might have in the church. Yeah. The next two episodes that we're going to record, we're going to talk specifically about how to work through resistance when you're trying to lead a church through change. And I guess the easiest way or the simplest way that I would define this is that, you know, resistance is, is a natural thing when you're trying to move people from one place to another. Some people just move more easily than others. Some people have different expectations. Conflict arises when you don't navigate that resistance in a proper, healthy, gentle and grace oriented way. And so we're going to talk about those things in the next couple of episodes. Just to kind of quickly recap the first three points that we talked about in our last episode. The key number one to navigating conflict is just face the reality that conflict will come. Like every church has some level of conflict. And we kind of did a little bit of a deep dive on that. The second key was move towards conflict quickly but wisely. Don't let it fester, don't let it stir, have an action plan. And we kind of talked through a few key bullet points on how to best do that without creating more conflict from the initial conflict that you have. And the third key was really, I mean, it should be a no brainer, but it's not in our day of technology and the Internet and texting and emailing. And that is to go face to face anytime you're facing conflict. It needs to be like human to human face to face as best you are able. That might not always be possible, but those are certainly, those are points of guidance that we would give you. And if you didn't miss, if you didn't listen to that episode, make sure that you check back. It was released at the, the first of last month. So go check that one out. Let's dive into our final three keys to navigating conflict. The first one is this. And that is to check your own heart first. Jesus said it best in Matthew chapter seven. He says, why do you see the speck in that's in your brother's eye without noticing the big log that's in your own eye? Right. Like it's, this is a Jesus. This is a Jesus statement. He said it best. It's the best. Why don't you talk a little bit about that, Nathan? Just kind of like checking your own motives, checking your own heart before you start navigating that conflict. Yeah, I think all of us take conflict personally or, and see it as, as, as, as personal. The first thing I would say is, as we mentioned last week, is, is stop looking at conflict in a negative way. Conflict is an opportunity for us to have a better future together because we resolve the things that's keeping us from moving together. And so as a leader, as you look at conflict that way in a more positive way to actually nurture a better and more healthy relationship going forward, it changes our perspective of why we're going to engage in what we're hearing from people. Because oftentimes we're listening to somebody or we hear that these persons have a big problem, like, oh, the headache we're going to have to deal with. Why do these people don't trust me? Like, we have all these assumptions about what is going to happen or what we're thinking, they're thinking before we even enter the conversation. And so, you know, we have to come back and say, lord, you know, where is my heart in this situation? How am I? What's my attitude towards this person? Because if I walk into the room and I'm already assuming like 17 things and, and you know, I'm already hostile, I haven't even like, given the person, and it may be something completely benign that we're going to have a conversation about or something about information flow that didn't happen or whatever. So I need to, I need to readjust my attitude, my perspective. And I, I like the idea that, you know, love believes all things, right? And, and so we, we need to come into the room believing the best about the other person. And that's, that's the loving posture. That's a loving attitude. And it checks our heart. Because there may be things that I said, there may be things that I did, there may be things that I didn't communicate well or, or whatever that may have led to why this person is having a challenge and just starting at a better place. As we enter the engagement, it's going to make a huge difference in terms of our attitude and perspective and our posture towards the person we're engaging. I can just speak to my own experience in trying to navigate situations that have created conflict. It's almost always relationally, right? It doesn't start as relational conflict, but it turns into relational conflict. And, and that's. Sometimes I take things personally that really aren't intended to be personal. It's really, the person is more frustrated or the conflict has arisen because of a decision that was made or because of something that has changed or a situation or circumstance that I can kind of take it personally if I'm involved in the conflict. Now, it's a little bit different when the conflict is between other people in the church and you're trying to navigate that. But I think when you yourself are involved in that conflict, it takes a really humble spirit to look at that and go, okay, is this really personally directed towards me, or is it the person just reacting because it's part of their personality or it's because of a situation and circumstance? I don't really even understand their motivations. You know, Matthew, I think it's chapter five. In Matthew, Jesus says, you know, if you go to the altar and you're making a. Giving a gift to God and someone has a problem with you. Not if you have a problem with someone else, but if someone else has a problem with you and you're aware of it, you leave that gift to the altar and you go to try to make it right with that person. I mean, I've almost always interpreted that as, well, I have a problem with somebody else, so I need to go make it right. No, it's actually if that person has a problem with you. And so I think it starts with. And Jesus is crystally clear on this, it starts with looking at the mirror, recognizing that you are not without sin, you're not without fault. Look at the plank in your own eye and address it with a humble spirit. Now, the reality is, sometimes we're just dealing with cranky, frustrating, you know, overreacting people. And it might not be you, but it's always good to start with that gut check first and go, have I done something? Or have I? Or do I need to do something that would actually help me navigate this. This conflict in a way that'll help us get a healthy resolution? The other thing I would say, too, is when you're dealing with a parishioner or person who's in the congregation to the. To the pastor, not just to someone else in the church. For most people, not all people, but for most people, for them to even try to talk to the pastor about that problem, it has to be at quite a significant level for them personally. And so they may be behaving in a way, acting out, causing problems with others, talking to other people about it before ever coming to you, because the idea of talking to you is a significant Mark to get to. To actually do that emotionally and socially for them. So they might be misbehaving and how they're behaving, but understand that it's not easy to go talk to the pastor about whatever thing you think is wrong. It's not like talking to the other person besides you in the pew. So having some empathy for the average person in the congregation and stop, you know, being too overly sensitive to what's happening and working towards, hey, this is an opportunity for us to have a better future together by resolving this thing. And so I think those things would really help. Yeah. Let's move on to our second point. And this is one key number five. Deal openly, not publicly. Proverbs 27 says, Better is open rebuke than hidden love wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses. Now, when I say this verse, I wanted to share with you. It was probably about 15 years ago, and I know that you know where I was and what I was doing. I was having conflict with someone that I was doing ministry with. And your brother said this verse to me, and I wanted to punch him in his big, bright nose because, like, I don't want to have to deal with this. Right? Like, I. I was. Like, I was so. I've never forgotten that moment when Phil said to me, hey, Bart, you need to go address this openly, and you need. And this is the way you need to do it. This is what scripture says. And I was like, but I really don't want to, because this is really hard. But it's true. And that was a great lesson for me, you know, 15 years ago. I would like to think that I've matured and grown. One of the biggest challenges in churches, and I think this is just a human nature thing, is that we tend to kind of grumble about things behind the scenes, grumble behind people's back. We. You talked about this in the last episode, which is to go up with things rather than going out with things. And we need to just make sure that we're. We're being. That we're just being transparent and we're being open. We're not airing dirty laundry from the pulpit. That happens from time to time. That's a. That's a. That's a poor use of. Of the pulpit. In fact, it's. I think it's. It's a. It's a disqualifying use of the pulpit when you're airing dirty laundry from the Pulpit, you know, things need to be addressed with the appropriate parties and it just needs to be done, you know, as transparently as possible. Why don't, why don't you comment a little bit? I'll also stay respectfully because like, you know, I person has a big problem and they meet you in the front of the lobby, in front of everybody and they're airing out all of their stuff. Like, no, there's a place in time to have a conversation about something that's diffic. Difficult. This, this isn't it. So, you know, love you. It sounds like you're really distressed. Why don't we either, you know, if you can't wait, let's, let's go to the back room here and let's have a conversation or let's set up a time either tonight or tomorrow morning and we can talk about it in a way that's more healthy for all of us and for everybody involved. So I think that there's, you know, as you're managing conflict and dealing with things together, like there's stuff that you talk about in front of other people and there's stuff like you and your wife, you're not having some conversations in front of your kids and you're certainly not having them in front of your in laws. You know, some, some conversations you're just going to have with YouTube. You know, it might get a little fiery, but you know, okay, but you know, you're doing it in a private way. So I think being respectful. The other thing is, is most people are passive aggressive and, and, and boy, and if you become passive aggressive. No, when you like let's, let's. That's like the second point is get on conflict quickly. If you have anything going on, just be open and candid with the person in a way that's in the proper context, right in the proper setting to get after it before it becomes something more. Yeah, but when you pretend and hide and you have all these problems and you know, that's what I used to say with board meetings. You know, the board would meet and talk about something for days maybe and after they make a decision, this guy will say, well, I didn't, you know, he had all these problems, but why did he bring that up before the decision was made? You know, and that's what happens a lot with conflict in the church, is that people are pretending to be okay while they're talking to other people about their problems. And so you don't know, you're oblivious to the problem. And then all of a Sudden, you know, now it becomes this big bomb that goes off and you're like, now we have to deal with all the carnage. So yes, I think we, we need to be our, ourselves. We need to be open and direct and engaging with people, but in the proper context and setting for having those conversations. It's not appropriate to have any kind of serious conflict conversations in front of the whole congregation or in front of other people or bring them up publicly. We need to protect people and respect people and give them dignity as we navigate the challenges that people have, you know, in the church. It's also not appropriate to you punch your ministry partners in the nose when they confront you and tell you that you need to do things. So, Phil, if you happen to be listening to this, I'm sorry that I wanted to punch you in the nose, but it wouldn't be hard to. You're not going to miss like any swing is going to probably do it. He, he was, he was leading me and loving me, and I, and I didn't want to hear it. That's, you know, that's. Again, check your own heart. I needed to go back to checking my own. Checking my own heart. Okay, let's look at our last, our last point here. This to me is really, it tails really well from the last point, which is number six is to seek a win win solution whenever possible. You know, when we're working through a situation or circumstance, if at all possible, we want to prevent someone from feeling like they're losing in the end. Philippians 2, Paul writes, do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. And you as the pastor, you as the church leader, I mean, your primary responsibility is the interest of others. It's not your own interest. When it becomes about you, your preferences, what you want to accomplish, what you want to do, you're. Again, go back to point number four, check your own heart because your motivation may be wrong. You talked about this in the very first episode. I think it was one of the first points. And that is to assume the best assume that what people are wanting is not necessarily a negative or a bad thing. Why don't you just talk on that a little bit? Yeah, I think we come back to all those different points that, you know, one, I want to, I want to be working towards on the end of this. We have a better relationship going forward. We've been able to talk about and navigate the challenge that we have or you have or I have or whatever, or the misunderstanding, get it clarified in that we're actually have better communication and we have a better relationship and a better understanding so we can be better together. So that, you know, I think that perspective and that attitude is what's going to lead to a win win solution. It's not about I'm right and you're wrong, you know, and I win and you lose. That's. That, that's, that's not the proper way to think about conflict and conflict resolution. I mean, there are some times when the person is totally wrong, but even in that person, let's say a person was totally wrong in what they did and how they behaved. You know, it's not about them being able to admit that they were wrong. That's, that's the first step. But you know what? This is something that, that happened. I'm sorry that you, you did that. You, you appear sorry for doing that. Now, how do we go forward? Like what's, what's the way forward for us, for you to make this right with the others that you hurt or within the church family or whatever, and then for us not to encounter this again and for us to have a better future together. So everything isn't about just the combination of the answer that you got or the I'm right and you're wrong. But no, no, how do we actually go forward together better from this situation for how we engage it in what we did? I think that is the way to think about why you're getting into the conflict and where you're headed from the conflict. Yeah. The reality is not every conflict situation can result in a win win. There are going to be certain situations and circumstances where, you know, if someone is digging their heels in the sand and demanding something that is, you know, contrary to the direction of the church, the mission, or the values of the church. And you're just, you're convinced, convicted in all your heart that the Lord is saying, no, we've got to go right. When this person is insist that we have to go left or this needs to be a no. When this person is insisting that this has to be a yes yes. There are times when the best resolution is not a win win, but it's someone actually making a decision to leave the church. And this is really difficult when that happens. We know we've seen it happen over and over and over again in church revitalization situations. I had a call yesterday with one of our church partners that we've been coaching for the last few years. And they recently went through in the major decision of removing the pews from their sanctuary and replacing them with chairs. And I know this, this is, some of you are listening to this and you're going, that is a battle that I am fighting or prepared to fight or need to fight or want to fight. And, and there was one person in this particular congregation that, you know, wrote a two page letter to the pastor as to why the council was wrong in approving this decision. And this pastor's posture and his spirit towards this person was so gracious and so loving, but because they had a really, really good missional case for why this was going to enable them to better utilize the sanctuary space for things other than simply a worship service on Sunday morning. Because it's a kind of a smaller building, they need more flex space. In the end, the person came in and said, okay, once they saw it and once there were a couple of steps taken, like, one of the concerns was that a lot, this would be common in a lot of churches. Many of the pews had been purchased and dedicated to individuals. Now, 50 years ago, like, we're talking about a building built in the 1970s. So even the people who donated those pews have long gone to be with Jesus. But it's like, well, we just don't want these pews to end up in a dumpster somewhere. And the Lord's provision was another church wanted the pews. And so those pews have lived on in another congregation somewhere else. And so, you know, whatever the memory of those people that they were donated for has not been, it's not ended up in a dumpster. But, you know, I don't know what kind of impasse there would have been had this person not been handled so gently and graciously and lovingly because it was, it was, it was a really big deal for someone. And, you know, sometimes that's hard because we as pastors, sometimes people make big deals out of things that we scratch our heads and go, I just don't understand why this is a big deal. But man, it is really, really important that we see that some of these things can be a really big deal to people. Yeah. And I mean, worst case scenario, I've had situations where the person we were just not going to see eye to eye in terms of philosophy or strategy or whatever. And I said, you know what? You, I, I can see that you love Jesus and you want to see his kingdom flourish. And you're seeing these things not the same way as we see them here. At our church. And, and that's unfortunate, but it's the truth. And so it doesn't mean that you're an evil person and I'm an evil person. But, you know, this church right down the street, they see it exactly like you're saying it right here. And, and, you know, we want to protect the unity of the body of Jesus. I think it might be a blessing for you to go there and feel really better fellowship and better connection. We love to have you here, but this is where we are. And I don't want you to be frustrated. And, and I want you to thrive for what, you know, God's gifted you and called you and you want to serve him, and, and so even in the worst kind of context, you can still make it a, because you're going to see that person probably at Walmart next week, you know, and you don't want to be ducking. But also, we want, we want the best for everybody, you know, just because it isn't going to be our way or our things. But there are other times, too, when a person's in sin, they're unrepentant. And then you have to, you have to exercise church discipline, and that's when you need to have the other elders involved. There needs to be a process that you're walking through to get them there. And if they're still unrepentant, you need to exercise church discipline. It's really important. But that, that's a whole other conversation we can have for another time. But that would be like the worst scenario. But other than that, most of the time, you can actually, 95% of the time, conflict is leading you to a better place together. Because there's something that's in the way, that's unclear, unresolved, and you can resolve it and you can clarify it and you can go on together as a better team and as a better church and a better family. I' correct you on one thing. You said 95% of the time, Christianity Today, their study actually reports that it's 94% of the time that pastors report positive outcome from conflict. So you overstated just a little bit. Rounded up Pastor Matt there. Hey, we're going to wrap this up, but I have one bonus point here, and I think this is one that you will agree with, and that is if you need to, and you may not even think you need to, but it's certainly good to consider, bring in a third party outside of your church community to help navigate the conflict sooner than later in our Fellowship, we have districts. The pastors in our districts are, in theory, we would love them to be connected with each other relationally and missionally. And if your fellowship or your denomination or you're in your network of churches, you have other people that can kind of come in and help you navigate that conflict sooner than later. We've seen situations where perhaps if the church had reached out for a little extra help a little earlier on, we might have seen a different outcome than where we ended up, which didn't necessarily always jive the way that we wanted it to. But I, I know that you're very passionate about that, Nathan. Oh, I am so passionate about it. And I think it's important as you take on the leader role, as a leader, as an elder, that you understand where, where is my. Where are my options? If I'm having conflict with the lead pastor, where can I appeal to? And then as a lead pastor, you're having problems with your elders or your leadership team, where do I appeal to? How do I get help? Because, because if, if it, it goes on too, too far, it can be unredeemable. So you want to nip it in the bud before it gets there. So absolutely reach out for help. Even organizations like ours or others are there to help mediate sometimes in those circumstances. So you want to be able to find within your network where people are trusted and you can appreciate and respect them. That's the first place I'd look. But if you can't have that, there's other places and resources to reach out to that can help. Be a third party mediator before the church just blows up over something that maybe doesn't need to happen at all. And so, yeah, I'm, I'm all for making sure that we are getting after resolving conflict because unresolved conflict creates more conflict and it creates a bigger mess. And we, you know, we're. God has called us to protect the unity of the body and, and to make sure that we are loving one another and treating one another with love and grace as we, we navigate the mission of God together. It's a great final word. And so we'll wrap up on that. This has been the 41st episode of our podcast, Revitalize My Church. If you happen to be new to the show and you haven't yet subscribed, wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, make sure that you do that so you don't miss any future episodes. We release one episode on the 1st of the month and one on the 15th of the month. If you haven't checked out our website, we've got some other resources, some blog posts and other things that revitalize my. All of this is linked in the Show Nuts Show Notes. Not the Show Nuts, the Show Notes. And I'm going to have Randall edit that out. Let's try this again. All right, stop. Okay. All right. If you happen to be new to the show and you haven't yet subscribed, wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, make sure that. Oh, this is bad. Okay, here we go. Last try, because I'm running out of time here. If you haven't ever. If you happen to be new to the show and you haven't ever subscribed, wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, make sure that you do that so that you don't miss future episodes. We release one on the 1st and on the 15th of each month. And if you haven't checked out our website, it's Revitalizemy Church, where we have some additional resources, some blog posts, and ways for you to connect with us if you need to. We'll include all of that in the show notes of this episode. And until next time, I'm Bart Blair on behalf of Assist Church Expansion with Nathan Bryant.