Episode Transcript
Welcome to episode three of the Revitalized My Church podcast. My name is Bart Blair, and I am the director of Church Revitalization for Assist Church Expansion, and I am joined in the Virtual Recording studio for Assist Church Expansion by Nathan Bryant, the Executive Director of Assist Church Expansion. Nathan, welcome to my welcome to my studio.
Oh, thanks for having me, Bart. Excited for today.
Yeah, we're very, very excited for what we're going to be sharing with our audience today. Uh, I am recording from the Dallas Fort Worth area. Nathan Bryant is in the Toronto, Ontario area. Um, we're not going to talk about the weather because it would just make him sad. Uh, but we're recording in, uh, the fall of 2023 with anticipation that you're probably listening to this episode sometime early in 2024. Um, it's a brand new podcast. And if you haven't listened to the episodes leading up to this episode, make sure that you do that. Uh, the very first episode that we released is a little bit of an introduction of who Nathan and I are and our background, and why we are so passionate about helping churches find a new way forward. And in the last episode that we recorded together, which was episode one, uh, we shared what we call our five big rocks of revitalization. And, uh, those five big rocks include unity, Leadership, Team, Plan and Launch. Those are our five big rocks. And Nathan and I are going to record an episode on each one of those. The last episode we recorded specifically was about the topic of unity, unity in the local church, and why unity is such an important part of a church. Revitalizing or finding a renewed, a renewed vision, renewed future. Uh, today we're going to talk about the second big rock, which is a rock that we call leadership. So, Nathan, I'm going to pitch things over to you and just ask you to just sort of begin to extrapolate on this. Why is leadership such a key element in a church revitalization?
Like leadership is the most important component to its success. You can have all the resources and you can have really a good team and even a plan. But without leadership, you're not going to go very far. So it's really, really important. It's interesting when we look at the scripture, the Old Testament, especially in the New Testament as well, any time God was going to do something significant, what did he do? First he went. He went and got a leader, right? Uh, he got David, he got Moses, he got Joshua and all those different places. He went and got a leader. Uh, one of the verses that was I'd like to share with this about David in Psalm 7870, uh, to 72 says this. He chose David, his servant, and took him from the sheep pens, from tending the sheep. He brought him to be the shepherd of his people, Jacob of Israel, his inheritance. And David shepherded them with integrity of heart and with skillful hands he led them. And there's there's this pattern in the Bible when God's going to do something, something hard, something really big, he he calls a leader first. And without leadership, you're really not going to be able to move that church from where it was to where it needs to go. Leadership is is is the most important, not the only but the most important component to success.
Yeah. You know, you you highlighted a few people there, people like Moses and Joshua, uh, other people that come to my mind when I think of leadership is Nehemiah, uh, Peter and Paul. And in each situation, you can see that these men were called not just to oversee and shepherd a group of people, but to actually take them from one place to another. I mean, it's obviously crystally clear with guys like Moses and Joshua. They were moving people from where they were to where they need to be. And I think that's that's really the objective of of the leadership, whether you're talking about the individual leader who's leading the church, the organization, or you're talking about the leadership team. If people are serving and working in team, is that the leader or the leaders are able to see a preferred future and move people from where they are into that preferred future.
Let's one more thing I want to say about this. Because when we're working with churches and you know this all the time, like we're working with a church, what are they looking for? Generally speaking, almost every church we work with, they're looking for a teacher, and they think the teacher is the leader and he may be the leader, but but just because he's a great teacher doesn't mean he's a good or strong leader. And so it's really interesting in most church contexts, they're looking for a shepherd or they're looking for a teacher, but what they really need is a leader. I hope he can teach well. Awesome. We need to be teaching the Bible. I hope we can shepherd well. But more importantly than all of those, in terms of getting this church to move, he needs leadership. And that's really, really a key component to what we're trying to get after.
Yeah, I think I want to double click a little bit on that psalm that you just read a minute there a minute ago there. But one of the things that just came to mind as you were expressing that is, you know, the idea of like Nehemiah I, I've been since I've been working with churches on this, this revitalization journey. Nehemiah is kind of one of my go to, uh, Old Testament scrolls, because what we see there is we see the city of, of Jerusalem really being revitalized. And Nehemiah was not necessarily skilled in wall building. That wasn't necessarily that wasn't his vocation. But what know what Nehemiah did well was he rallied other people to get done what needed to get done. And we're going to talk more in our next episode about team and why team is so important. But in order to have an effective team, it's got to start with leader, leadership, leadership, gifting and and a skill in that. Um, let's look at that that verse again that you just read Psalm 7870 to 72. I'm gonna I'm going to read it again. He chose David, his servant, and took him from the sheep pens, from tending the sheep. He brought him to be the shepherd of his people, Jacob of Israel, his inheritance.
And David shepherded them with integrity of heart. With skillful hands he led them, verse 72, that last one there, I think, is the one that's just it's it says so much about who David was and what he was able to do. He shepherded them with integrity. He was a man of integrity, and he cared for the people that God had given him responsibility to care for. But with skillful hands, he led them. Uh, yeah. Leadership is a skill. It is something that can be learned. It is something that can be developed. And I want to talk a little bit about that, Nathan, because one of the things you mentioned is many of the churches that you know, that we have an opportunity to, to to go on the journey with, many of them have been in a leadership transition. So they're they're transitioning from a pastor who's perhaps retired or moved on to another ministry, and they're looking for a new pastor. And you, you, you hit on this, that their their gut instinct is to find someone who's going to preach great sermons and shepherd them really well. And I, you and I were talking before we started recording about a, a quote from Todd Todd Bollinger's book. Canoeing the mountains. And Todd says something to the effect of, you know, in our Western church world today that leadership is kind of synonymous with pulpit here.
Uh, if I'm a good preacher, then I must be a good leader. And we know that that's not always the case. You can have someone who's a very, very gifted preacher, orator, Bible teacher who doesn't necessarily have leadership gifts, and vice versa. You can have somebody who's a very strong leader, who doesn't necessarily have the ability to do the preaching and the teaching that's necessary. Um, so let's talk about the process of a church identifying a new pastor. Let's let's start there. We're going to talk about a pastor who a church that's looking for a new pastor and what things they might need to be looking for as far as leadership is concerned. And then we're going to talk about a, you know, there's a pastor listening to this podcast right now who knows that he needs to revitalize his church, and he's questioning whether or not he has the leadership gifts necessary to do that. And I want to talk to that guy, too. But let's talk a little bit first about the church or to the church that's looking for a new pastor. How do we identify Nathan if someone actually has leadership gifts?
Well, that's a big that's a big, big question. You know what? Uh, well, a couple things there. One, I want to continue to, to work with the church to get their perspective off from just the preaching and the shepherding, because not that those things aren't important because they are, but that's what they're looking for. And it's what they they can't get there. They can't get their eyes off that ball. That's that's what they're really, really want is, is and to push them toward, say, we need to have a leader. And sometimes a leaders even think this. They think about management. So the guy is going to work a plan, which is really good. Leaders need to have a plan and they're working a plan. But the difference between a leader and a manager is quite distinct as well. Not just not just having someone who's a good preacher or teacher or a manager, but who's a leader. People actually do not want to be managed right. Nobody wants to be told what to do. But usually when a pastor comes in, there's so much to do. He's trying and he sees all the need. He starts to tell people what to do. We need to change this and change that and make this happen and all this stuff is taking place, and he's managing the people, and the people are revolting against him, and they're pushing back, and they don't like it, and they're mad and they're angry because nobody wants to be managed.
People need to be led. The difference between management and leadership is, is managers tell people what to do, leaders tell people why they're doing it. And that's a big difference. Getting people to see a vision, a preferred future and desiring to move towards it, moving from where they are to where they need to go and giving them a reason why they should go there, and moving people through vision towards a new direction and a new future, and catalyzing something that's about a preferred future. That's a big, big thing to do. Now, I've seen guys come in who have visualizing leadership. Who share a big dream, but they have no actual. Action to take to get there. So that can be disappointing too. But you have to pair. This together where a person is coming in and he's mobilizing people through encouraging vision, not just telling people what to do and beating them up. And that's what is really hard, because the leader who's coming in and taking responsibility sees all that needs to happen and how hard that change is. And sometimes they can just focus on the details instead of inspiring people to move towards that preferred future. And that's what really is required to see this happen.
Okay. So again let's let's talk about, you know, my church for instance, is going to we're going to go through a pastoral search process. And we've we've bought in we've drunk your Kool-Aid Nathan. We recognize that we need a leader not just a pastor Shepherd. We want all. Okay. We we that's we want everything because we need somebody who will pastor our church as well. Yeah, but we recognize that we need someone who's a leader when we're interviewing candidates, when we're screening candidates, what are what are some things that we need to be looking for? What are questions that we might need to ask? Uh, a candidate I want.
To I want to be able to see a leader is someone who doesn't just take a walk. Right. He's he's the one who actually brings people with him. So I want to see what he's done in the past to mobilize and move people to accomplish something big. It may not be totally in the church context. If it is, that's even better. But has he been able to envision something, mobilize others to do it, and they succeeded at accomplishing it together. And if that's been part of the journey, then that's what I want to hear about, because it's not just that he's done this and he's done that. No, leadership is about doing things through others and mobilizing others towards a task together. And can he do that? Does he have the skills not just to deliver on what he needs to do, but to mobilize and encourage and envision others to participate together towards a shared goal? And that's what you're looking for from a leader.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. You know, one of the things that a lot of churches will do is you know, when they're looking for a newer pastor, maybe even a younger pastor, they'll interview guys that have perhaps been a youth pastor or an associate pastor in another church. And so one of the questions you might ask the youth pastor is, so, you know, you've been at this church that you've been at for the last five years. Uh, tell us about your youth ministry. And, you know, in some cases, the guy may say, well, when I got there, we had, you know, eight high school students. And five years later, you know, we've got, you know, 28, you know, we've we've seen it triple or more in the last five years. And on on one level you go, well that's great. Like now, did he actually contribute to the growth of that or do they have a really, really amazing senior pastor who has helped grow the church? And by proxy, the youth ministry has actually grown. So I'd be asking questions. Number one. So what are the things that contributed to the growth of your youth ministry over the last, you know, 3 to 5 years as you've been leading it? The second question I would be asking is, tell me about the volunteer team that you built to lead that ministry as it's grown, because if this guy has done nothing but attract high school students to be a part of his group, that's not necessarily a demonstration of leadership. But if he's been able to actually mobilize people who are other adults and other volunteers and other people to actually serve in that ministry, then you might be on to somebody who has some natural leadership gifts. If other people want to serve alongside him.
I would try to look for that because leadership is working through others. It's not doing it necessarily yourself. Right. So I'm looking for those characteristics where a person is able to envision and inspire, but also mobilize and move. And so this is a big thing. And so if I'm looking like you're saying this youth guy, all right, he may be a fantastic communicator and amazing personality and he can gather, you know, lots of students. That's good. That's better than certainly better than nothing is is certainly a great talent. But does he have a team that he's organized and mobilized? The other thing I'd be looking for is has he made a plan? Like what? What is the vision of where he's taking these students? Okay, so he has a large youth group. Great. What's your plan for these students? I mean, do you have any outcome that you're looking for? These students are going to actually achieve and move towards coming to know Christ and growing in their faith and being disciples and developing them to be all that God's called them to be. What is not just the idea of it, but what is the strategy you're enacting to actually get them there. So a good leader is going to envision the future and also work on developing that strategy. And we'll talk about plan next, next step. But you can't lead without one. And so what I'm looking for those those clues of leadership is that he's mobilizing others to help him deliver the excellent on the on the outcomes. He's he's got a vision in which he's able to share and communicate that inspires and moves you towards it. And and there are actually is a strategy that they're actually enacting to get there together. So those three things I think are mostly what I'm trying to kind of get a sense of. Can you develop vision? Can he mobilize people? Can he build a strategy or work with some people to build a strategy to? Get to where he wants to go. So that's I'm looking for those things, those leadership those. Yeah.
And it's a tricky thing because, you know, I've said this before, I can't remember if I said it in one of our previous podcast episodes or just in general in the conversations that I have with churches. And that is the people who are currently in the church are there because they love the church and they're there. Their gut instinct is not necessarily to be to bring someone in who's going to bring a lot of change, but we're having this. We're having this.
Now. Yeah.
We're having this conversation. We're producing this podcast with the expectation that if you are listening to it, you at the very least recognize that there are some things in your church that probably need to transition. Uh, there are some things that maybe you need to add. There may be some things that you need to let the Lord take away. Um, and if that's your posture, here's the thing that I want you to, to, to, to kind of grab hold of another Todd Bolsinger quote. And you talked a little bit about management versus leadership. The way that he expresses this is he says management is focused on what is leadership, is focused on what can be or what must be. And so if we're if we're looking for a pastor who simply going to manage what we currently have, and that's all that we have expectations for him to do, we're not looking for a leader, we're looking for a manager. But if we're looking for a leader who can actually help us envision a future that's different than where we're currently living and more fruitful than what we're currently accomplishing or seeing as a result of our ministry. We're looking for someone who can actually cast that vision for us and get us excited about it.
Um. Todd Bolsinger says that leadership is about an organization fulfilling its mission and realizing its reason for being so. The local church has a mission. It has a purpose. It has a unique role in the community in which it is planted. And it's not just about having a group of people who know the Bible really, really well. That is part of it, right? But an effective church in any local community is going to be making new disciples of people who weren't yet disciples. Then we're going to teach those people to obey everything that Jesus has commanded, which means they need to learn the scriptures. They need to know the Bible, but they also need to be equipped for future ministry, whether that's future ministry in the context of the local church or in their workplace. Or maybe we're sending a missionaries out to foreign countries like there. There's all kinds of equipping and sending that needs to be happening, but a leader is someone who's going to be able to really cast that vision and catalyze people to see that all three of these things are things that we need to be doing and get them white hot on fire to do all of those things.
And I would say when you're interviewing somebody like, there are other things you're looking for that are kind of beside this for sure. Uh, a person who's a great communicator is, is, is going to be able to lead a lot more effectively. And the fact that he's a good preacher, he's going to he's going to endear people to him as the leader, uh, because people want to hear him instead of like, put up with them. They're they're like, they they really want to hear him and they're learning from him and they're being inspired. So they're growing spiritually. But I would also say that there's character there that you're seeing when you when you meet the person and you engage the person, you see how they act. Um, you know, you want to be checking out, like, what is the wake of this person in the relational space? You know, as we, as we as we check out their history and we talk to other people and don't just go by what they're saying about themselves, although, you know, I'm sure they're they're being honest about that. But I would be wanting to know what is the wake of this person when when they when they leave a space, when they are done or when they're enacting someplace, is there like carnage all over the place that you have to clean up afterwards? Or is this person a person who's kind and works with people and has really good people skills and is delivering, you know, a way that's that's that's positive and moving people. And also as a person of character, integrity, he's going to actually do what he says and not cut corners and not cheat, and is going to operate in a way that honors Jesus and protects the church.
These kinds of things are also part of the leadership quotient, because if a person with high integrity and is a great communicator and a warm personality, he's already way ahead of the game in terms of what he's able to do to lead it. Now, he may not have all of those characteristics because nobody's everything. But when he has those things as well as strong leadership gifts, which is being able to move people from one place to another within vision, uh, that that's really that's, you know, that's the cat's meow when you have, you know, all these other strengths. So when you're to me, I have to meet a person. It's one thing to watch a person on zoom or even watch a video of them preach, and that's good. But when you have that, you know, when you finally get to the place where you can actually have them come and you can spend time with them, see how they treat their families, see how they interact with other people. You know, just just kind of watch them. Uh, I think this is a really helpful thing to kind of get a sense of who is this person and will they follow his leadership, not just because of the vision and the words that he's saying, but because of the kind of person he is, because the character he holds, because the way he shows love and care for others, those are other. Things that really add to the power of that person's leadership.
That's that leads us to actually a pretty a pretty logical transition to a conversation, to the pastor, to the leader who's currently leading a church. And maybe he's been there for two years. Maybe he's been there for 20 years. Uh, and he recognizes that his church is not where it needs to be. And he's listening to this and he's like, okay, I think I maybe I can unify my church and my leaders around the prospect of, of going in a new and different direction. But maybe I'm not really sure if I have the leadership gifts to do this on my own. Maybe I, you know, because I've been here for 20 years. Maybe I haven't led people, maybe I what what do you say to that guy to encourage him in terms of how he discovers his own leadership gifting and maybe even invests in his own personal leadership development?
I would say the first thing I would I would want to know is, is he he might be just doing the assignment as he's understood it. Right. He he may actually have strong leadership gifting. It may not be as natural as other people's leadership gifting, but he can lead. He's just the assignment isn't supposed to preach every Sunday and make sure these things happen and it's not really thought, okay, now I actually have to take responsibility to to create a bigger vision to move our congregation beyond that. Or maybe the person is a really great communicator, good teacher, not good at strategy, but he's a good communicator. Well, that I think, uh, there's ways to, to, to find those. What are the things that you're not strong at in trying to be able to create a vision for the future. We'll talk about that tomorrow. You know, more in the in one of the upcoming podcasts we talk about team. But I would be looking for those other pieces like who, who, who's really good at that. I'm not that good at that. But if I had that, that teammate with me, or maybe the person who's really a bad, really challenged at shepherding, that's not their gifting.
And so people are kind of off put because they don't they don't get the love, they don't feel the love from the person, but they're actually a good communicator. So I would want to be looking at what are the pieces that I am kind of not having, but at the same time, I would say, I think for most guys that are in this space is they need to how do I make a plan to move us forward, and how do I think differently about the role that I currently have to think about a better future? And that's that's what we do as assist as we work with churches and with leaders, we're not really telling leaders what to do at all. We're actually there to support and serve them, to help them build a plan and a strategy that they can now work to envision their people with and have something that's that's really exciting that people will want to get around and to accomplish together.
I firmly believe that every pastor, every man who's truly been called into pastoral ministry has in his mind and in his heart what his ideal dream church would actually look like. Yeah, for many guys, that dream died a long time ago because the church that called them has never really lived up to what they expected. It doesn't mean that they don't love their church, and it doesn't mean that they're not proud to be serving that church as it is. But there are just pieces of it that are not quite what they dreamed the church would be like when they stepped into ministry and leading in that particular church. So I would start by encouraging any guy who's asking these questions again, whether you've been in your church for for two years or two decades or longer, is to start writing down what your preferred vision is for your church. Start by actually writing down the big dream. What's the big dream? Yeah, when you start to share that dream with people, especially trying to unify others around that dream, you'll begin to get a sense, number one, of how much leadership trust you have with the people in your church. And I think a guy who's been in a church for, you know, decades who's looking to revision his church for the future is in the best possible situation because he, in all likelihood, has all the relational capital that he'll need to help navigating the church into a new. He has all.
The marbles in his pocket. Yeah, he's he's got trust.
He's got trust. And so, you know, again, we've I've quoted Todd Bolsinger a couple of times from his book Canoeing the Mountains. And I'm going to give one more quote, uh, before I kind of wrap up this, this piece I want to want to share. But just for context, the book is called Canoeing the Mountains because he equates church leadership to the, um, Lewis and Clark expedition of trying to canoe from the Midwest United States to the Pacific coast. And of course, they thought that they were going to find a water route that went right from, you know, Missouri to Washington state to the what what is now Washington state to the Pacific Ocean. And then they ran into these little things in Colorado or Wyoming called or Montana, Montana. They ran into these things called the Rocky Mountains and small, small.
Challenges.
Small little challenge in Montana called the Rocky Mountains. And they were not going to be able to use their canoes to get across the mountains. What got them there was not going to get them the rest of the way. So one of the things that Todd Bolsinger writes about in the book is comparing, um, navigating church church leadership to what it was like for Lewis and Clark to to rally their troops and to get them where they needed to go to fulfill the mission that they had, the purpose that they had as a as a corps of discovery. And this last quote that I'll share of his is that no one is going to follow you off the map unless they trust you on the map. When Lewis and Clark were leading, when Lewis and Clark were leading their team, they had a map that they were following, and all of a sudden they realized that their map was no good because the people who had drawn the map had not been where they were going. That is true for your church. Um, there's nobody in your church who's probably been where you are going and where you need to lead the church. And so you're going to go off map, you're going to have to go, you're going to have to get out of the box and, you know, try some new territory and try some new things and lead people on an adventure. But here's the deal. If they trust you on the map, they're more likely going to trust you off the map. And so the first thing that I say is write down that dream, write down that vision, begin sharing it with people, start to test and assess, um, the leadership strength and capital that you have with the people who have been following you, that maybe you haven't been leading them anywhere, but they've been following you because they've been showing up, and they've been under your care and under your teaching for for some time now.
Let's see if we can, you know, graciously, tactically, patiently navigate them to a new future. And we're going to we're going to get into upcoming episodes, how you actually begin to implement a plan to get there. But I think investing in your own personal leadership is huge. Here's another principle that I think is really important. I call it the proximity principle. It's not unique to me. I stole that idea from another guy. But if you have other people in your life that you see as being strong leaders, spend more time with them. Uh, the proximity principle, you know, you're going to become more like the people that you hang around with and you spend time with. So whether it's another church leader or a business leader or a community civic leader, someone who, you see, man, they are good at moving people, at rallying people of casting vision for people. Spend more time with those people and be a great question asker. Ask them all kinds of questions about your situation and what how they would coach you and encourage you to take steps in developing your own leadership gifts and investing in yourself that way.
But two things I think of, too, as if you're a leader sitting there thinking about, hey, do I have the stuff to take this forward? I would say, first of all, the fact you're even asking the question is amazing, but I would ask that question of other people who you really respect and be open and humble enough to hear what they have to say about your leadership. The second thing I would say to you is, is start thinking more as a leader and not as a manager. And and I've seen so many leaders get really frustrated at the, at the sheep. And they beat the sheep and they're mad at the sheep and they're frustrated with the sheep. Well, God's puts you responsible for them. He's he's put you in charge of them. He's put you to lead them to greener pastures and by still waters. And so how do we lead them and not beat them and not push them and not manage them? But how do we inspire them and encourage them to a better and more preferred future and do that, you know, to we can get them together and unify them along the journey. So I just encourage you to think about leading them towards where God is leading you to lead them, not just to tell them what to do, because people do not like that and they will. You'll have a very negative impact. They will not work out as you think it will. Just because you feel like the Lord has shared with you the vision and you tell them directly what it is, it will may not be that they will follow that that that keenly.
Well, we have to we have to turn the, the, the, the posture that we visualize when we think about a pastor in his church is he's standing up front and they're all sitting in seats and they're facing each other. Yeah. And what the pastor needs to do is he actually needs to turn around facing the opposite direction and actually be the leader, lead them, be the lead missionary. He's the lead missionary in the community. He's the leader. Um, and it takes a different posture. You know, sometimes it is being out front, sometimes it's being shoulder to shoulder with people. Um, but it's not standing in front of them, facing them, telling them what to do. It's actually turning around and pointing towards a future, a different future, a more fruitful future, and then leading them, guiding them, encouraging them towards that new future. That's, to me, the definition of a church leader.
The last thing I would say to this, Bart, is that the journey as Lewis and Clark, the journey of moving people from one place to another that's different than where they've been, is not for the faint of heart. So the person who's going to make that trek, who's going to go after that, that new future, that new inspiration that God has for that church is going to need to be able to handle all of the the challenges along the way with grace and dignity and not push back too hard against the sheep as they will. They will have challenge to make the changes that are in front of them. So if you're a super sensitive and you're you're not, you're you're not able to take the kind of abuse that you will likely get. Uh, it may not be for you. So just know that what's in front of you, bringing change to a congregation to move it to a new future, uh, is going to take leadership, but it's also going to take really thick skin. You're going to have to be able to handle quite a few hits to to make that change happen. With Grace as.
Well. On such a positive note, Nathan said this is the last thing he was going to share, so we will wrap up with that. Uh, hey, thanks. Uh, if you've made it all the way to the end of this episode, thank you so much for tuning in. We hope that you're finding this content to be helpful and useful as you are a part of a church. Maybe you're a leader, maybe you're a part of a church leadership team, and you're just looking for and praying for a new and fruitful future for your church. We hope that this has been helpful. Uh, if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, wherever you're listening, make sure that you do that so that you don't miss future episodes of the show. And you can click over to our website. Revitalize my Dot church. Uh, we have an email list that you can subscribe to, and we're going to be adding new content to our website, uh, providing some resources for you. And if you join that email list, we'll email you when we have new stuff available so that you don't miss any of that great stuff. Uh, Nathan, thanks for hanging out with me today.
Great to be with you, Bart. Fun stuff. Leadership is definitely a big a big issue. Let's go for it.
