Episode Transcript
Welcome to episode 51 of the Revitalize My Church podcast. My name is Bart Blair. I am the director of church revitalization for Assist Church expansion. And I'm joined as I am on every other episode, alternating episodes, the executive director of assist, Mr. Nathan Bryant. Good day, Nathan.
Hey, Bart. Well, we are recording this in what we call here in Texas the dog days of summer. It is August. It is hundreds of hundreds of degrees outside. You are in the Greater Toronto area as we.
Yeah, you're home. As we record this. Not always home. When we record. What's the weather like in the Greater Toronto area?
You know, the spring was smoking hot, and it's been relatively hot, but it's been dry the last week, and it's been beautiful. I tell my boys every time I walk outside, it's like Southern California sunshine and warm, but it's. It's pretty hot. But it's not. It's not humid, which.
Which I can. I can tolerate heat with no humidity, but. Okay, you're living in Texas, so you don't get. Yeah, it's. It's.
It's. It's hundreds of degrees near here now. Now, I'm going to be honest with you. When it comes to podcasts that I listen to, one of my. One of my least favorite things in a podcast is the chit chat at the beginning, especially when.
Here we go. Especially when the hosts talk about the weather. But I started with the weather on purpose because I want to talk about temperature. I want to talk about the temperature of evangelism and outreach in your church. Have you taken the temperature of your church's evangelism and outreach lately?
We're going to talk about evangelism and outreach today. How we as a church, collectively and as individuals, do our part at accomplishing the Great Commission. That's ultimately the goal here. Right. We're trying to help churches get healthy and get on mission for God's kingdom, for God's Kingdom building.
Now, if you're new to the podcast, we just passed, this is the 51st episode, so we're halfway to 100. Took us two years to get here because we release two episodes every month, one on the 1st and one on the 15th of the month. And we've committed ourselves to doing this podcast because we want to help churches navigate change and reorient to a new and healthy future. And healthy churches have a healthy posture towards evangelism outreach. And so we're going to talk about that today.
Nathan, I brought this topic to our podcast today because as you and I have interacted with and engaged with a lot of pastors and church leaders here over the years, one of the things that is a common, common, I'll call it a challenge, maybe, is our ability to help churches cultivate a culture of evangelism that isn't solely focused on each individual going out and winning a single person for Christ. That we think more in terms of a corporate model, how we as a church are called to reach people for Jesus, not necessarily the individual. Now, the individual has a responsibility for evangelism and the church has responsibility for evangelism. But why don't you talk a little bit about why you, why you think, think there tends to be a tension between those two ideas and those two concepts. Wow, that's a big, big question is, I think there's a bunch of things in play.
One is, is the overemphasis of the corporate evangelism that seems to be splash and whatever has been, there's been a trend to, to move away from that. And then I'm not here to argue one way or the other because now that the individual people in the church aren't actually reaching people for Christ, everything is done and thought of in a corporate way. So the emphasis now is like how it used to be when everything is like, what are we doing personally to reach people for Jesus? And I think it's a both and question. I don't think it's one or the other.
In fact, I don't think you can have an effective corporate evangelistic engagement without personal evangelistic engagement happening, because it's, it's actually the combination of the both. But I think you get the most happening in terms of traction and people coming to Christ but not coming only coming to Christ, but also integrating into the church and becoming healthy followers of Jesus in the long term, which is what we're trying to do. I want to read a passage of scripture here as we get started in First Corinthians, chapter 3. In verse 3 it says, But I brothers, could not address you as spiritual, but as people of the flesh. As infants I fed you milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it.
Even now you're not ready for it, for you are still of the flesh. I wanted to actually move to verse four says, for when one says, I follow Paul and other Apollos, they're only mere humans. What is Apollo's then what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.
So neither he who plants or he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one. Each will receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.
And sometimes when we're thinking about evangelism, we think very specifically to the individual. We're trying to engage with the individual who should be doing it. And so the focus is that way. And when Jesus was talking to his disciples, we as Western people, when we hear the command to go and make disciples, we hear that as an individual command for us as a person. And so if I'm a follower of Jesus, I should be out making disciples who make disciples.
I think that that's true, but actually that's not actually what Jesus did. Jesus called all of his disciples together and told them collectively to go and make disciples to together. And the mission and call of God is not for an individual to reach people by themselves, even though sometimes we're asked to do that. But the call of God for reaching in his strategy to reach the loss is actually corporate in the. The, the.
The thing he wants to use to do it is the church. And the church is the collection of people and all the various gifts that he's given to actually engage and to work with people to come to know and follow Christ. So I think if we limit our evangelistic thinking that only we're going to train our individuals to do it by themselves. I don't think we're doing a good service because that individual has limited gifts and abilities. And they weren't.
I don't think they were ever meant to reach people by themselves for the full journey of their life. I think they were meant to do it in partnership with the rest of the body with all the varying gifts to do it collectively and cooperatively together. But if we're only focused on the corporate side and we're like, okay, we're going to have all these events and Activities and things we're going to do to try to move people. And nobody's reaching anybody. No one's making any relationships.
You have nothing to bring, nobody to bring to these things that you're trying to do corporately. So I think you need both. I think we need a corporate view of how we get after evangelism, and I think we need a personal engagement view. But I don't think Jesus ever intended for us to do it by ourselves. I think that's a big idea in terms of just getting started in the conversation.
Yeah. You know, there, there are so many statistics. I did a little bit of research before we started because I wanted, I wanted to share a percentage. And the percentage, the number that I wanted to share was what percentage of people in United States, Canada, North America who claim to be born again Christians regularly share their faith with, with someone who is not yet a follower of Jesus. There are too many variances in the statistics and the reports to give a clear answer on that.
The majority of the reports would say not very many. There are far fewer believers sharing their faith with people who don't yet follow Jesus than there are who are actually doing it. And we can attest to that. I mean, you look at your own church, right? Whether Your church has 20 people in it or 2,000 people in it, you know that the vast majority of the people are not regularly sharing their faith.
One statistic I did run across that I thought was really indicative of maybe some of the problem that we have in the church. Barna did a report. I'll try to link to the article that I read in the show notes here. They did. Barna did a report in 2023.
So just three years ago, this is pretty fresh. That said only 6% of pastors that they surveyed felt that they themselves were effective at sharing the gospel with non believers. Yeah, right. So when you have pastors, only 6%, meaning 94%, didn't feel that they were effective at sharing the gospel with non believers. And so when you have almost every pastor, which 94% is almost every pastor, feeling a lack of confidence in their own ability to, to lead someone to Christ outside of the pulpit.
Right. They all feel confident in sharing the gospel from the pulpit. The problem is most of the time we don't have enough non believers in the room for that to really make a significant impact. Right, Right. I think that there is a.
There becomes naturally, there becomes a cultural challenge in the church when the pastor doesn't feel confident doing it. And so what I want to talk about today, Nathan, is kind of this two. One of the benefits, I think, as we have trained and coached churches over the years on how to build a culture of evangelism and how to do evangelism as a team, it takes pressure off of the individual, of feeling like you're in the battle and you as the pastor who may not. Chances are, if 94% of pastors don't feel confident, there's a good chance that those of you who are listening to this, maybe you don't feel confident there, that having a. Having a core corporate plan, a family plan, a team plan, whatever you want to call it, can actually reduce and remove a little bit of the pressure that you might feel in doing so.
Here's one thing. I had this conversation with a pastor a couple of days ago who so desperately wants his church to have a greater heart for outreach and evangelism. And I said, here's one of the problems that we face in our culture in North America today, especially in churches, especially in established churches. I think we forget how lost lost people really are. I think we forget.
We lose sight of just how lost we really were before we got saved. And I think that a big part of it is that we. We just don't preach it and teach it enough in our church context to make people feel the sense of urgency that there is a need for us to be looking at the lost sheep in our community, in our culture, in our neighborhood, in our family, in our place of work. That lost person really, truly is lost. And God's plan is to use his church, including you, me, and all the other believers that are part of it, in helping people be reconciled to Him.
We are ambassadors, and ambassadors have a job to do. We're not, you know, it's not a game we play. It's a job that we have to do. So how do we do that? Nathan, you shared on this podcast before, when we did, we talked through some of our evangelism training.
You shared a little bit about the training that you had as a young adult pastor and what you were doing evangelism on a personal level. Why don't you share just some highlights of what you thought about evangelism as a young pastor, young leader, and how that maybe has reshaped a little bit of the way that you see evangelism today? Yeah, I used to think that evangelism was my responsibility as an individual to go to somebody and be fully responsible, to help them know and come to understand Jesus and make a decision for him, that that was all on Me. And so of course I worked on 17 different ways to share my faith and God has blessed me to be able to have the opportunity to do that. And by his Holy Spirit has let people come to know Jesus that way.
But as I wanted to see other people do the same thing, I'm like, they're really, really resistant and I'm like, I was making a lot of burden on them. Now I see people being willing to learn these methods but still not utilize them. And I started to understand that, oh, whoa, okay, well all these people, they should be able to share their faith, they should be able to share their testimony 100%, don't miss me. But actually if they work together, this guy has gifts of compassion and mercy and he's connecting with people and serving people that I would never touch. This person has gifts of giving and they can make stuff happen and provide ways for pathway.
They, this person has gifts of administration and organization and they can actually organize stuff and bring people together. This person has gifts of hospitality. Like if we just start working together, yeah, we have the gatherer or the person who's got evangelistic gift and who can bring people into the community but who's going to love them, who's going to connect with them. Because the focus isn't just the one time communication of the gospel, but the long term engagement and building community and helping that person to become a fully committed follower of Jesus. That's the church.
And so as we start thinking about the church working together corporately, it's just totally different. The other thing I think about is the process piece. I used to think, okay, I could come and share the gospel with somebody like in a five or ten minute conversation they would understand the gospel and they can make a decision they understood. Well, that may be true with a person who has some kind of background, but the vast majority of people growing up in today's world, they didn't go to church. Their mom and dad didn't go to church.
Everything they've heard from school and every place they've gone for education is anti God. So believing in a CH God, they may have heard about Jesus, they may have something because we come from a somewhat Christian based culture, but they have so much to understand and learn before they can actually make a decision that they understand. It doesn't mean if the Holy Spirit is leading you to communicate the gospel and ask for a decision that you don't, you do exactly that. Absolutely. But Jesus has called us to make disciples commit fully committed followers of him.
And the idea that we're going to deliver that in a five or ten minute conversation. It's really just not realistic. It doesn't mean it can't happen and God can do whatever he wants to do. But, but realistically, as we plan and work with intentionally engaging people and moving them in a process to actually connect with us, feel trust with us, engage the conversation about Jesus in the word of God and let the Holy Spirit have a chance to transform their heart. This is a process mentality, a process thinking which I didn't think about before.
Everything for me was like immediate. Share the gospel, ask for decision, let's go right after it. And not because I didn't have the right heart. I have amazing desire see the last people found, but I wasn't thinking about them in their situation and how I was actually going to long term help them make a clear decision for Christ and be connected into communities so they can become a fully committed follower of Jesus. And so as I started to understand some of these ideas, boy, it really transformed the way that I think about it.
So when we think about the corporate engagement of the church to the community, there's so many different pieces to it that, that affect what we're doing. But I don't want to get too heavy on the corporate and not say there isn't an individual responsibility because I think we need both. If the, if the people in the church are not actively engaged to make relationships with lost people and are in the lives of lost people, I don't care what you're doing corporately, you're not going to get any traction. And you can have, you know, you can have amazing individual stuff and people making decisions, but they're not connecting to the church and not becoming, they're not becoming disciples. And that's disappointing.
But when we can do both and we can work together with the unified gifts that God has given the body and have a strategy and have some process, what we're doing, boy, there's, there's amazing things that can be, can be happening in terms of us seeing lost people getting found and moving forward. One other thing I would say too, Bart, as we're still kind of in the big picture of this conversation, is when the people of the church actually know how people come to know Jesus with the strategy you're implementing at the church. It is so empowering because now they understand why we do this event, why we do this activity, what Sunday is the gospel is going to be preached, they understand what's taking place and then they can play ball together instead of it like not we have no idea. Right. And so having a clear plan of how you do it and it may be different than any other church does it.
I don't, that's not my issue. What your philosophy and strategy could be completely different, but you have one and, and it's communicated and the people know what it is. That's, that's going to really empower your people to get after working together, to do it together. I'm gonna kind of double down on something that you just said and then I'm going to ask you another question that is going to lead more on the more the coordinated church aspect of this. And I'll say this.
Every individual in my church, in your church really does need to, in a very succinct and clear way, need to be able to articulate their own faith journey. It's the Apostle Paul. This is what my life looked like before Jesus. This is how I met Jesus. This is what I learned about Jesus.
This is what I did in response to that. And this is how it's changed my life. And if you can do, everybody in your church needs to be able to do that in a two minute or less way. Every individual in your church needs to be able to clearly articulate the gospel of Jesus Christ. The good news of Jesus, that man was separated from God by our sin, that Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty of that sin and that those who believe in him and receive him are given the right to be called children of God.
They are adopted into God's family. The Holy Spirit indwells them like everybody believe. So if you don't have very intentional training in your church for the individual to help them, number one, be able to articulate their own faith and to be able to articulate the gospel, I think you're doing your church family a disservice. I think we overestimate what people know and we overestimate their ability to actually articulate what they know. So do that number one, do that.
But if you're doing that for the sole purpose of thinking that everybody's leaving the church building and going out on the mission field and everybody's going to go start sharing their faith and sharing the gospel at Starbucks or at the soccer field or in their place of work, it's probably not going to happen. There will be some that will and, and, and God bless them and God love them. And again we, we'll let Holy Spirit can do whatever he wants to do in whatever way he wants to do it. But I think what I want you to articulate here, Nathan. I want people to understand that we see that that is a critical part of discipleship.
But let's talk a little bit about what it looks like practically for a church to have a shared strategy versus only individual trained members. What does it look like? You don't have to get into a lot of the weeds of it, but what does the big picture coordinated plan for evangelism look like in a church? One is that there's a conversation about evangelism all the time and there's regular communication in preaching of the gospel from the pulpit. So that's the starting place.
Secondly, there's clarity. There's a strategy and philosophy that the leadership of the church has about how this is happening. How are we connecting with lost people? How are we connecting them to our people? How are we building trust?
How are we, how we. How are we generating spiritual interest and how we communicate the gospel? Where is that going to take place and how is it taking place and what's the process? And I would really challenge churches to think about process, that we're moving people through a process of getting there. And so when you can have that clearly articulated and you, whatever process, you have it, however you want to do it.
Like for instance, at our church in Mississauga at Grace. Well, now Renew Church, they have an evangelistic Bible study. That's where the gospel is going to be taught a person over a period of time to process the gospel, reading the word for themselves with a gifted evangelistic teacher who's going to help them make a decision for Jesus. They understand that's how they decided they want to do that. So everybody knows in the church that, hey, we have these events and activities and things are going on.
But I'm working with my friend. If they have interest in moving forward to know more about Jesus, we have this class and I'm going to invite them to that so they know. They know where the gospel is going to be worked on with that person. And it just empowers them to understand how the church is working and coordinating together. Why are we doing this event and activity?
We're not just doing it for fun or for kicks and giggles. We're doing it so that the neighbor I'm working with inviting over to my house for barbecues, I can invite to meet more friends at the church and we can have a fun time and connect so they understand what is happening. So not just doing activities and programs, one is having a clear process of how you're doing them, but two, that your people of the church, understand why you do them and how they're actually working together to move people in a journey of connection, of building trust, of creating spiritual openness and then planting the seed and working to making decisions and making disciples who follow Christ. How do we do that as a church and what does it look like in our context? So having clarity on that big picture in why you do what you're doing is going to so empower your people in every way, in everything that you're doing and moving them towards working together for the gospel.
Yeah, I think that the two things that I would just sort of hit on there is, number one, I think having that corporate understanding of, of how the process is all working together, that it's, that it's mapped out that when we do these, like a lot of churches, when they think about evangelism and outreach, they think event based evangelism and outreach, an event can be part of an overarching evangelism and outreach strategy, but events in and of themselves are not going to move the needle nearly as much as churches think they will. I actually, when I talk with people, churches, church leaders about evangelism, I. It's sort of like, I mean, it's church planting, right? I think the church planter 101 is go meet new people every day. You need to, you need to start new relationships.
And I think when we do outreach initiatives, event based evangelism, the point of those is to start new relationships, to build that trust, to invite people into community and in that connection. But there are so many other components to it. And for us, I mean, you know, I've served in ministry with you for two and a half decades. And my model of the shared strategy would be very similar to yours. We use an evangelistic Bible study.
Our goal is to really help the people in our church know if you are not comfortable having the cocktail napkin conversation where you lead somebody through the Romans row, like if you're not comfortable, I just want you to invest in that relationship and invite that person into the next cycle of this Gospel of John study that we're going to do and sit next to that person and we'll go through it together. And you. And I've seen this happen over and over again where people in our churches will they get saved through this evangelistic study and then they actually start using this evangelistic study to start sharing the gospel with their own friends. Right? That's right.
It becomes one of the most empowering and equipping things. And you know, and we see people do it in their neighborhood, do it in their homes. Elizabeth and I have shared, you know, shared the Gospel of John study with other people that we know who are investing in relationships with people who are far from God. And they're doing it individually, but corporately, we always have that safety net for people. And everybody in the church knows that, hey, if I've got somebody that I love who's far from God and I want to get them connected to Jesus, I'm going to connect them to my church family, and I'm going to get them into this evangelistic Bible.
And I would say it's more than a safety net, Bart. It's actually the right distribution of the gifts. If I have someone who's a gifted evangelist teacher, why wouldn't I want them being the ones who are sharing the gospel with the person? Like, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't have everybody trained to do that. Awesome.
But, you know, so I'll give you an example. When we first started Grace Community Church, we were doing evangelist Bible studies. And I was doing all of them, and I had three go in a week. And I was like, I can't do any more. Because we were.
The Lord was bringing us lots of lost people, which is phenomenal. And we were seeing lots of people come to know Christ. And that was our strategy, how we were committed. So I started to train other people to do that training, that study. And I had a couple do it.
And I had two other individuals that I trained to do it. And one guy, 80% of the people who took the class and did their homework made a decision. The couple, about 70% of the people who took the class and did the homework made decision. And another guy, about 40% did. So if I'm.
I got one shot with this person or couple or family, whoever's coming to the process of discovering Jesus and are working to want to know about him coming to this class. I really want the guy who's got the greatest gift if I have the opportunity to do it. So, you know, it's interesting. Paul says, I ordered and Apollos planted, but God is the one who gave the increase. There's.
There's different gifts that are at work in the body. And we. I don't have to do it by myself. We get to do this together. So I want to empower the people in the church to actually use their gift wherever that is in the body.
And corporately we can make stuff happen to engage lost people to create that spiritual trust and interest, create spiritual thirst, and then move them to A place where gifts are being used all the way through. But especially at that last place of decision, there is a gifted person who's got the gift to help them make that decision. And that's actually going to be very empowering because we know that guy's really good at that. I want to bring him to that, you know, or, or this guy has a lot of spiritual questions. Well, I can try to answer them or I can bring them to Pastor Bartley or Pastor whoever, you know, And I, I tell, I tell the pastor and the people, the churches that we work with all the time.
It's like, listen, if you're working with lost people who don't know Jesus and they've got spiritual questions and you can't answer them, I can guarantee you it will make your pastor's day. If you just bring that person with you to his office and say, hey, my, my friend George, and he's got all these questions, he's going to be like, he will keep his office open all day long to answer those questions for people who are lost. So I don't think the issue is that we've got too many people asking too many questions and we don't know how to handle them. I think the issue is we're not actually connected with lost people on the individual and personal level. So that way together is we need to be pushing our people to be effectively and intentionally engaged with lost people in relationship and making connections, but then working together with the rest of the boss to generate those relationships, build that trust, openness, and then the gospel and how that happens corporately needs to be clear to them what is the path to a lost person coming to know Jesus in our church?
What does it look like? Do you know, do you have a plan if you don't have a plan or you don't know how it's going to happen? And the idea that someone's going to walk off the street and come to one service and hear the gospel, make a decision, it's possible. But realistically, is that really how it's going to happen? And so what does it look like in your context?
Really important. You have clarity on your philosophy, your strategy, and you have a process of how that works, and you're articulating that to empower your people to participate with you in it. Yeah. One thing I want to kind of circle back around on. As you talked about how you were inviting other people in the church to take on the opportunity to lead these studies, this was the lesson that I learned.
And, you know, we Come from a family of churches that is very teacher and Christian education oriented. Like we have some really, really strong teachers in our family of churches and a great emphasis on Bible teaching. What I discovered in my last church, I like you. When I was, I was the lead pastor in the church and I was leading the study all the time and I realized that I was a bottleneck for the process. And I also just didn't have the time to commit for the follow up with the people that needed to happen.
And I had a retired couple in my church who I could tell just through personality as I was getting to know them, that they were evangelistically wired, they cared deeply about seeing lost people get saved. And I invited them to apprentice with me to lead the class. And when I handed it off to them, there was one thing that I knew for sure. There was zero chance that they were going to teach the material as well as I could teach it because they weren't teaching. That wasn't their gifting.
But the, I'll call it success rate of seeing people get saved actually went up. And it went up because of the nature of their personality. It went up because they had time. This became their primary ministry in the church and it wasn't my only ministry in the church as lead pastor. So they had time when somebody missed a week or missed a class or needed follow up or had more questions.
They had the time and the energy to nurture and invest in those relationships and make it work. And you know, and they had the gift of evangelism. Yeah, and they had the gift of evangelism. And more than one occasion we got a phone call at like, you know, 7:30, 8:00 clock in the evening and they would say, hey, so and so just committed their life to Jesus. We're warming up the hot tub, call everybody and we're going to baptize them right now.
And we did that on more than one occasion. You know, we gathered 20, 30 people in their backyard and we would baptize somebody in the hot tub on the same evening that that person received Christ. I, I can't even see myself making something like that happen. Right. So, you know, as talented as I think that I am, that's something that I, I was never, I.
You just, you get to find the Lord provides you the right people to do that. So as a pastor, I think one of the difficult things is not thinking about that, that evangelistic study as being the primary focus of it is not Bible teaching. It's not, it's not parsing Greek verbs and Giving the historicity of the text. It's really helping people get to know the person of Jesus. And you know what?
They get to know the person of Jesus when they're spending time with somebody who actually looks like and acts like Jesus in their life. And that's. That's one of the most. Yeah, that's one of the most powerful things. Hey, we need to put a pin on this.
Just. I want to point. I want to actually slam the note on what you just said. Because, listen, if you don't have the gift of evangelism as a pastor, it can be very intimidating to get into this conversation. You're feeling.
You're feeling so inadequate, and it's normal. Find someone in your church who has the gift, empower that person, and then work through that person to facilitate how stuff is taking place in this area of not where you're strong, but where they are. And again, I think that we have to be seeing the church working together as a team. It's a big. It's a big deal.
I was gonna. The question I was about to ask you was, what's the first step? Well, you just identified the first step. If you, as the pastor are not necessarily evangelistically gifted, you don't see that as your gift. 94% of pastors don't see themselves as being effective at doing so.
Maybe that's. You look around your church and see who that person is. And again, I think doing spiritual gift inventories of the people in your church, knowing what people's gifts are, and then actually empowering them in an evangelistic process to serve in ways where their gifts are coming to the surface, and everybody understands that they're actually utilizing their gifts in a way that's helping lost people come to know Jesus. And man, if we could, every church could do that. If every.
When people start seeing people come to know Jesus and they start seeing that one person who's really gifted at helping people come to know Jesus, they're bringing their friends to that person. Yes, they can tell them about Jesus. So that's the other thing that happens is people start to see, acknowledge the gift of others. It really empowers everybody to participate because now they feel really encouraged that, hey, I know if I can bring them to Jim, Jim's going to help them come to know Jesus, which is awesome. Well, hey, if you've made it all the way to the end of this episode, thanks for doing that.
Hopefully this has been helpful and encouraging to you. We're 51 episodes in, and you know the statistics out there say that only, you know, a very small percentage of podcasts get past, like, five or six episodes. And. And we've done that. Sometimes it's a little hard to get them.
Sometimes it's hard to get them on the calendar and, and get our schedules coordinated. But this has been a great conversation, something Nathan and I are obviously. I hope it's obvious we're super, super passionate about. If you have questions, if you would like some coaching, if you would like more resources, if you would like to know how you can get copies of some of these Bible studies that we're doing, please reach out to us. You can fill out a form on our website at Revitalizemy Church or, hey, just send me an email bart assistcx.org and I'll be happy to follow up with you and get you whatever resources that might be helpful.
Again, if you haven't yet subscribed, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts, please do that so that you don't miss any future episodes. And on behalf of Nathan, thanks for hanging out with us today. We'll see you next time.
